For what reason do we include Stride?

[Abby Normal]

Except for, you know, the blood.

And imagine if some random passer-by got around the corner to see a bunch of Jews rolling a corpse onto the street.

Wash the blood up.
keep a look out first and or use the cart before dumping-Mere seconds and little chance of being seen.
remember, they are not pressed for time if its a conspiracy and have all hands on deck to help.
but of course its rubbish, like the royal conspiracy and police conspiracy nonsense.

i guess any mystery will produce the crackpot conspiracy theories though.

[Harry D]

Wash the blood up.
keep a look out first and or use the cart before dumping-Mere seconds and little chance of being seen.
remember, they are not pressed for time if its a conspiracy and have all hands on deck to help.

If it's that simple, why didn't they do that?

Guilty or no, why wouldn't they do that just to be on the safe side?

but of course its rubbish, like the royal conspiracy and police conspiracy nonsense.

i guess any mystery will produce the crackpot conspiracy theories though.

Trying to conflate this with the royal conspiracy is nonsense.

We have a club for jewish socialists (anarchists), antisemitism is rife, one jew was almost lynched for the murders. A potential ripper victim is discovered on their doorstep.

You don't think the club would conspire to protect themselves out of fear of recriminations? Seriously?

[JeffHamm]

....

We have a club for jewish socialists (anarchists), antisemitism is rife, one jew was almost lynched for the murders. A potential ripper victim is discovered on their doorstep.

You don't think the club would conspire to protect themselves out of fear of recriminations? Seriously?

And demonstrating that they were doing everything they could to help the police and not hinder the investigation doesn't do that how exactly?

- Jeff

[Michael W Richards]

If there was a Pipeman, and Israel believed the call to be directed at him, it still could be interpreted as a call to notify a co-conspirator about Schwartz. The term was derogatory, that's clear, and the heightened sensitivity to anti Semitism led to the destruction of perhaps vital evidence in the case of the grafitto. That's precisely why I suggest that a dead woman presented the club with some potentially devastating problems.

The reference to Israels statement "at the Inquest" is obviously erroneous based on all the evidence that is known to this date, so, not to spend to much time following that kind of supposition would be a good idea. His remarks.. as likely translated by Wess, (Wess does translate for Goldstein Tuesday night, its probable he did so for Schwartz as well), suggest an encounter that has anti Semitic overtones. Which is a flag here, the translator has all the power. The story is his to relate as given or as he wishes.

I recall seeing a Roadshow piece recently where a letter from Morris to William Wess was discovered, and it contains reference to the differences between Anarchists and Socialists and Communists by Morris, and that he saw himself in the latter group. The nihilist quality of anarchistic activities, perhaps also the violence rained on the innocents, was not what he was about at all. Which brings us to the environment where Wess worked. The Mens Club on Berner. Is Arbeter Fraint and the Mens Club something that even some local Socialist/Communist Jews wouldn't want to be associated with, because of its message and methods at times?

You have to wonder whether some of the far right activists factions from groups like that and perhaps likeminded revolutionary types from Ireland, people who wanted the place where they now lived, or their country of origin, to be run by their own pollical order and were ok with using terrorist type tactics to destabilize the area, might band together on some activities. That yard might have perfect for storage of volatile substances. Just a sidebar.

[JeffHamm]

Hi Michael W Richards,

If there was a Pipeman, ...

I can't provide the link, sorry, but there are some posts here on Casebook where people suggest that Pipeman may have been located, talked to, and cleared, by the police.

... and Israel believed the call to be directed at him, it still could be interpreted as a call to notify a co-conspirator about Schwartz. The term was derogatory, that's clear, and the heightened sensitivity to anti Semitism led to the destruction of perhaps vital evidence in the case of the grafitto. That's precisely why I suggest that a dead woman presented the club with some potentially devastating problems.

There's no question the club would be aware of the implications. The issue is whether or not they created an elaborate cover up on par with Moriarty in it's subtleties. I rather suspect, without the benefit of time to write, revise, and re-write, they didn't first think of having their main story man include reference to a Jewish name as a good way of deflecting attention from themselves since they themselves were Jews. It just begs attention. The rest, as things fell out, is not something one would predict before hand, but easy to work in only through the glories of hindsight.

The reference to Israels statement "at the Inquest" is obviously erroneous based on all the evidence that is known to this date, so, not to spend to much time following that kind of supposition would be a good idea.

Oh, I don't put much into it. I just thought it interesting to note. I'm sure it was just a mistake during the letter writing. There's nothing anywhere to even try and build a "he gave his evidence under orders of suppression from publication". Again, I just found that worthy of noting, but I think it is more worth noting in terms of why we need to be cautious about any and everything, and not get too focused in on one or two bits of written accounts that seem odd. People make mistakes. I know, I make them all the time. I'm people.

His remarks.. as likely translated by Wess, (Wess does translate for Goldstein Tuesday night, its probable he did so for Schwartz as well), suggest an encounter that has anti Semitic overtones. Which is a flag here, the translator has all the power. The story is his to relate as given or as he wishes.

Unless we have other evidence to suggest that Wess was an unreliable translator, then I think this is just listing possibilities rather than plausibility, and I don't mean that as an insult or jibe (I hope it doesn't come across that way, I'm just stating my view, yours is free to differ after all).

I recall seeing a Roadshow piece recently where a letter from Morris to William Wess was discovered, and it contains reference to the differences between Anarchists and Socialists and Communists by Morris, and that he saw himself in the latter group. The nihilist quality of anarchistic activities, perhaps also the violence rained on the innocents, was not what he was about at all. Which brings us to the environment where Wess worked. The Mens Club on Berner. Is Arbeter Fraint and the Mens Club something that even some local Socialist/Communist Jews wouldn't want to be associated with, because of its message and methods at times?

You have to wonder whether some of the far right activists factions from groups like that and perhaps likeminded revolutionary types from Ireland, people who wanted the place where they now lived, or their country of origin, to be run by their own pollical order and were ok with using terrorist type tactics to destabilize the area, might band together on some activities. That yard might have perfect for storage of volatile substances. Just a sidebar.

We're getting quite far from the case and evidence now. The further we go, the more room for going anywhere. I'm not really sure what to do with the above bit actually. Sorry.

- Jeff

[Harry D]

And demonstrating that they were doing everything they could to help the police and not hinder the investigation doesn't do that how exactly?

- Jeff

At the same time, constructing a false witness to mislead the investigation.

According to Schwartz, Liz was manhandled and thrown to the ground by some thug. Minutes later she's dead in the yard. There was no sign of a struggle, the cachous were still in her hand, no one else heard or saw anything to corroborate Schwarz's story. Everything points to Liz being killed suddenly, without warning. Hard to believe that Liz would enter in the blackness of the yard with her guard down with the same man who moments earlier roughed her up. People will proffer theories in order to reconcile the two but imo none of them wash. Funny how people have no problem handwaving that issue, but to suppose that an immigrant jew would bend the truth to protect his own kin? Preposterous!

[Losmandris]

A question on times? How accurate do you think the witnesses were in giving times for the events they observed? I am presuming they did not all have time pieces, so were in general 'guesstimating'. I ask as, certainly in Stride's case minutes, even seconds are vital in terms of putting everything into some kind of logical order.

[Sam Flynn]

A question on times? How accurate do you think the witnesses were in giving times for the events they observed? I am presuming they did not all have time pieces, so were in general 'guesstimating'. I ask as, certainly in Stride's case minutes, even seconds are vital in terms of putting everything into some kind of logical order.

Hello Losmandris, and welcome to the boards. You're quite right about the "guesstimating", as not many of the witnesses would have had timepieces of their own, either on their person or at home. Even doctors and police might have used approximations on occasion, as is perhaps evident from some of the "round figures" given for timings. To be fair, "about quarter to X" or "just after Y" would have been good enough for most people's purposes - it still is, in fact.

[APerno]

Except for, you know, the blood.

And imagine if some random passer-by got around the corner to see a bunch of Jews rolling a corpse onto the street.

Has anyone ever chanced making a JTR comedy? I am not aware of one; absolutely a very dark/black/irreverent comedy no doubt. The recent Will Ferrell film (Holmes and Watson) which tried to get laughs with a Dorset Street parody fell flat, but a bunch of confused, panicked, bickering Jews trying to move a dead body has laugh potential, especially if they are 'rolling' it into the street.

[Joshua Rogan]

A question on times? How accurate do you think the witnesses were in giving times for the events they observed? I am presuming they did not all have time pieces, so were in general 'guesstimating'. I ask as, certainly in Stride's case minutes, even seconds are vital in terms of putting everything into some kind of logical order.

Not very, I'd say. Unless they had a specific reason and/or opportunity to note the time. Spooner, for instance, hanging around on the street chatting to his sweetheart, said;
"The only means I had of fixing the time was by the closing of the publichouses."
And when he accompanied Diemschutz to the club;
"I should say it was about 25 minutes to 1 when I first went to the yard."
However, there is some debate over what time the pubs closed (00:00 or 00:30) so it might explain why he was so out with his estimate.

[John G]

At the same time, constructing a false witness to mislead the investigation.

According to Schwartz, Liz was manhandled and thrown to the ground by some thug. Minutes later she's dead in the yard. There was no sign of a struggle, the cachous were still in her hand, no one else heard or saw anything to corroborate Schwarz's story. Everything points to Liz being killed suddenly, without warning. Hard to believe that Liz would enter in the blackness of the yard with her guard down with the same man who moments earlier roughed her up. People will proffer theories in order to reconcile the two but imo none of them wash. Funny how people have no problem handwaving that issue, but to suppose that an immigrant jew would bend the truth to protect his own kin? Preposterous!

Excellent post, which I completely agree with. I would add that Schwartz was not utilized subsequently in the investigation, i.e. to identify suspects, and Abberline later remarked that no witness had seen the killer from the front. All off this suggests that Schwartz was seriously undermined.

[Michael W Richards]

Not very, I'd say. Unless they had a specific reason and/or opportunity to note the time. Spooner, for instance, hanging around on the street chatting to his sweetheart, said;
"The only means I had of fixing the time was by the closing of the publichouses."
And when he accompanied Diemschutz to the club;
"I should say it was about 25 minutes to 1 when I first went to the yard."
However, there is some debate over what time the pubs closed (00:00 or 00:30) so it might explain why he was so out with his estimate.

Spooner wasn't out with his estimate, he was told he was when compared with Louis's assertion he arrived precisely at 1am...something which cannot be reconciled with the fact that from 12:50 until 1am Fanny Mortimer was at her door continuously and heard or saw no incoming cart and horse. The pub Spooner says they left closed at 12:00am. There are 2 witnesses who were inside the club and claimed to be by Louis and the body at 12:45, one of them had only returned to the club at 12:30 and checked a clock inside to verify the time, He says 10 minutes later he heard Louis was calling for him. Not all the witnesses had no access to clocks.

[Abby Normal]

to the club conspiracy theorists:

in your opinion-she was killed by someone from the club?
or they had nothing to do with it, but still engaged in the conspiracy just because she was found on their premise?

[John G]

On the face of it, the Stride murder had all the hallmarks of a Ripper killing if BS Man is excluded: victim caught by surprise by a perpetrator who lured her into the passageway-suggesting that he had enough social skills to put Stride at her ease-and then quickly overpowered her, giving the victim little opportunity to respond.

It's possible that someone from the club was involved, such as a boyfriend she'd arranged to meet, although the murder seems to have been too efficiently carried out for, say, an unplanned domestic murder.

On balance, I think Scwartz lied but that he probably did so of his own volition, i.e. without the involvement of the club.

[Michael W Richards]

to the club conspiracy theorists:

in your opinion-she was killed by someone from the club?
or they had nothing to do with it, but still engaged in the conspiracy just because she was found on their premise?

Probably the second for me Abby. I think a scenario like this is most plausible...that they hired security that night, I think Liz was hired to be there to clean by someone that she already did regular cleaning for, or, that she was there to meet someone.."among the Jews"...I think the thug either propositioned her, or questioned her about why she was there, she might have mouthed off at him before turning to head out the gates, and in an angry brutish gesture, he pulled her off balance with her scarf and then slit her throat while holding the scarf tight. Then he dropped her. 2 seconds.

I also think its possible Israel saw some or all of this when he left the club via the kitchen side door. I believe his story incorporates some of those details.