For what reason do we include Stride?

[Bridewell]

Hello Bridewell,

Change attacked to pushed and change 5 minutes to 15 or 20 and the likelihood increases significantly.

c.d.

Does it? In 30 years police service I never dealt with or heard of a person being subject to two separate and unrelated assaults in such a narrow time period. The likelihood, therefore, remains within the realm of the extremely improbable IMHO.

A push is an assault and on this occasion it caused the victim to cry out. That's an attack. The time between the incident seen by Schwartz and the discovery of the body was about 15 minutes. My '5 minutes' claim should perhaps, on reflection, have been '5 to 10 minutes' but there's no way of stretching it to 20 minutes.

[harry]

Isn't it a fact,if we accept the evidence of Schwartz,that Stride wa assaulted twice.There was the initial contact,and I'm not convinced Bs man initiated it,and the final contact in which Stride was killed.There was an interval,no matter how short,witnessed by Schwartz as he walked away,when Stride and BS were just talking.Yes bs could have killed her in a renewed assault,and just as likely he could have walked away.

[Wickerman]

Does it? In 30 years police service I never dealt with or heard of a person being subject to two separate and unrelated assaults in such a narrow time period. The likelihood, therefore, remains within the realm of the extremely improbable IMHO.

Perhaps if the context was changed.
If we were to ask a group of East End prostitutes if they had ever been assaulted twice in fifteen minutes, do you think they all would say never?

[Trevor Marriott]

Perhaps if the context was changed.
If we were to ask a group of East End prostitutes if they had ever been assaulted twice in fifteen minutes, do you think they all would say never?

I will repeat what i have said before that street prostitutes in 1888 were so desperate to make any money that they would have propositioned any man who happened to pass by.

That proposition would have at times led to them physically stopping and preventing a male from proceeding on his intended journey. As well as verbally saying no, that male would as likely as not, and in order to get the prostitute away from him would have pushed her away. That pushing may have simply resulted in the prostitute being forced away from the man, or if the force used was excessive,resulted in the prostitute falling over. I would also suspcet that there would have also been verbal exchanges between both.

https://www.trevormarriott.co.uk

[c.d.]

"I will repeat what i have said before that street prostitutes in 1888 were so desperate to make any money that they would have propositioned any man who happened to pass by."

Add to the equation the day and time and it is reasonable to conclude that a high percentage of the men passing by had been drinking.

c.d.

[c.d.]

"Does it? In 30 years police service I never dealt with or heard of a person being subject to two separate and unrelated assaults in such a narrow time period. The likelihood, therefore, remains within the realm of the extremely improbable IMHO."

Hello Bridewell,

But Swanson, a veteran detective who would have been quite familiar with the ways of Whitechapel at the time, allows for the possibility of a second attacker in his report. It seems a reasonable assumption therefore that he was not speaking in an all things are possible sort of way but rather expressing the idea that it was within the realm of probability to some extent and needed to be considered.

c.d.

[Wickerman]

I will repeat what i have said before that street prostitutes in 1888 were so desperate to make any money that they would have propositioned any man who happened to pass by.

That proposition would have at times led to them physically stopping and preventing a male from proceeding on his intended journey. As well as verbally saying no, that male would as likely as not, and in order to get the prostitute away from him would have pushed her away. That pushing may have simply resulted in the prostitute being forced away from the man, or if the force used was excessive,resulted in the prostitute falling over. I would also suspcet that there would have also been verbal exchanges between both.

www.trevormarriott.co.uk

No contest there Trevor, but that scenario depends on Stride being alone in the gateway. Why would she be standing in the gateway if she was so desperate as you say. Surely she would be off seeking punters?
Unless, she was still with one.

The dark entrance & alley of Dutfileds Yard would be a perfect place to take a client for a quickie. Which is why I think she was still with Parcel-man, and BS-man, as he staggered passed, suspected what they were up to and confronted the woman for the type of person she was. That was the cause of the altercation, in my view.
So, BS-man, I think, saw Parcel-man standing back in the shadows, but Schwartz didn't.

[Varqm]

IF the police had a believable, or rather believed, witness statement that was available before Strides Inquest that placed Liz Stride in the hands of someone she is seen being manhandled by just minutes before the estimate time of her throat cut, it would have been submitted to or presented at the Inquest.

It wasn't.

Israel Schwartz offered nothing but a demonstration of his allegiance to his friend, Wess, and his support of the anarchist jews that gathered there. He was very likely a member. Like Goldstein was. Or Eagle.

How did he achieved that? He described an incident,as far as Stride was with a man in front of IWEC, almost exactly like the one PC William Smith described so he did not exactly put in a good word, Somewhat all Schwartz is saying is there was another man 10 minutes after parcel man.Deflect away from the parcel man.?
Who would be carrying a "parcel was about 18in. long and 6in. to 8in. broad.".
I doubt it was JTR.

---

[Trevor Marriott]

No contest there Trevor, but that scenario depends on Stride being alone in the gateway. Why would she be standing in the gateway if she was so desperate as you say. Surely she would be off seeking punters?
Unless, she was still with one.

The dark entrance & alley of Dutfileds Yard would be a perfect place to take a client for a quickie. Which is why I think she was still with Parcel-man, and BS-man, as he staggered passed, suspected what they were up to and confronted the woman for the type of person she was. That was the cause of the altercation, in my view.
So, BS-man, I think, saw Parcel-man standing back in the shadows, but Schwartz didn't.

Women engaged in prostitution usually stay in one place and wait for punters to come by. In this day and age they will have their own street corner.I would imagine it was much the same in 1888.

You ask why would she be standing at the gateway? Well the answer is obvious, men were coming and going from the club so many potential punters, and the dark environment offered by the yard was an obvious place to take punters.

https://www.trevormarriott.co.uk

[Michael W Richards]

How did he achieved that? He described an incident,as far as Stride was with a man in front of IWEC, almost exactly like the one PC William Smith described so he did not exactly put in a good word, Somewhat all Schwartz is saying is there was another man 10 minutes after parcel man.Deflect away from the parcel man.?
Who would be carrying a "parcel was about 18in. long and 6in. to 8in. broad.".
I doubt it was JTR.

---

The story Israel gave placed Liz Stride in the hands of a surly man, likely gentile, and being manhandled,...off the property. The inference there would be of course that this gentile thug then took Liz into the alley and killed her. That is, in essence, an exoneration of the anarchist Jewish men still in the club at the time.

I think the nature of the club, the reputation of it, and the fact that some of these very same members attack police with clubs the next spring, should influence ones thinking on just how benign these men were. Before Liz was killed the police thought of this place as an anarchists club. The natural thing would be to suspect their involvement when she is found dead on their property. Israel changed that.

I find it interesting that on the night that anti-Jewish sentiment was found written in chalk near Jewish dwellings that a woman is killed on property thought to be run by anarchist Jewish immigrants. The very target of the police suspicions to that date for the preceding murders...according to Anderson.

[Jon Guy]

You ask why would she be standing at the gateway?[/url]

Listening to the singing in the club.

[Harry D]

Stride had no defensive injuries, no bruises or abrasions, her clothes were undisturbed, and she was still clenching the cachous when she died. It's hard to believe that the same man witnessed by Schwartz manhandling her in the street could be the killer. I think it was either a case of mistaken identity or there was an ulterior motive for Schwartz saying what he did. Perhaps Schwartz saw the same couple as James Brown?

[Michael W Richards]

Stride had no defensive injuries, no bruises or abrasions, her clothes were undisturbed, and she was still clenching the cachous when she died. It's hard to believe that the same man witnessed by Schwartz manhandling her in the street could be the killer. I think it was either a case of mistaken identity or there was an ulterior motive for Schwartz saying what he did. Perhaps Schwartz saw the same couple as James Brown?

I believe since its been established that Schwartz knew Wess, you could have your motive right there..helping a friend. IF Israel was there at all that night, it was far more likely he was attending the meeting then hanging around with the others, than he just happened by at such a fortuitous moment.

[Observer]

Stride had no defensive injuries, no bruises or abrasions, her clothes were undisturbed, and she was still clenching the cachous when she died. It's hard to believe that the same man witnessed by Schwartz manhandling her in the street could be the killer. I think it was either a case of mistaken identity or there was an ulterior motive for Schwartz saying what he did. Perhaps Schwartz saw the same couple as James Brown?

Couldn't have been, he would have tripped over his long overcoat. Seriously though I considered this and threw it out because of the long overcoat as seen by Brown. The man Schwartz saw had no such coat on, I doubt he would have missed the fact that the man's long overcoat extended to his heels.

It's possible that the couple in question could have been the couple Mortimer talked to. They were stood " at the corner of the street", at the time. According to Mortimer she could not understand why they had not see the whole thing happen.

[Observer]

Stride had no defensive injuries, no bruises or abrasions, her clothes were undisturbed, and she was still clenching the cachous when she died. It's hard to believe that the same man witnessed by Schwartz manhandling her in the street could be the killer.

Indeed. Yet there are those that who will tell you here in this very Forum that it's entirely possible that she clung onto those cachous, and never split a single one. Pulled into the street thrown onto the ground, dragged into the yard, laid onto the ground, where her throat was cut. I don't think so.