A Killer Other Than the B.S. Man?

[lynn cates]

wound

Hello Natasha. Thanks.

"That could be a possibility, but I feel that the ripper was the type of killer who would make sure the victim was dead & quiet, the overkill in earlier and later murders demonstrate this."

But why are those linked?

"Also if that scenario is correct, wouldn't the cuts go upwards?"

Don't think so. As her head sags, it moves down and away to his left. So also, it seems, would the wound.

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

socialist club

Hello Gwyneth. Thanks.

I think that is correct for a "working man's club." However, this was a bit different.

Cheers.
LC

[Wickerman]

Hi Natasha,

Excellent point. If he was that public spirited you would have expected him to seek out a police officer and report the attack that night.

Schwartz may not have run to the police directly because he couldn't speak English.

[lynn cates]

the netherlands

Hello Natasha.

"It is very strange for him to come forward indeed. Why risk it? It doesn't make sense, unless he was covering his ass or someone elses."

Now you're talking.

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

Once 'pun a time.

Hello Gwyneth. Thanks.

Very nice.

Cheers.
LC

[John G]

Hello John. Thanks.

Quite possible. But did Lave see the murder? I have often wondered if some club member did not inadvertently see some part of it?

Cheers.
LC

Hello Lynn,

Lave stated that he walked as far as the street. Therefore, if he did interrupt the killer I think he must have remained in the Yard, I.e by the body. Otherwise Lave would surely have seen or heard him making his escape which, of course, is exactly what happened with Coles' murder.

[John G]

Hi John,

Yes this is a possibility, but the ripper didn't have problems before of after, so I'm not sure if the lack of light had anything to do with it.

So does that mean the ripper wasn't responsible for this murder?

Hello Natasha,

Having read the views of Dr Biggs, the forensic pathologist engaged by Trevor Marriott, I am of the opinion that extreme caution needs to be exercised when considering the conclusions of the Victorian GPs.

[c.d.]

It is very strange for him to come forward indeed. Why risk it? It doesn't make sense, unless he was covering his ass or someone elses.

By going to the police I suppose he could plant the idea of someone other than a jew was involved. And it appears risky for him to do so, but perhaps him doing this makes him look innocent.

Lol, yeah that idea is not bad, pride may have had a role to play in his actions.

Well wait a minute here. Could he have actually (gasp) believed that coming forward was the right thing to do morally but like most people was reluctant to do so. I am constantly amazed how everything that Schwartz said or did is seen in a negative light.

c.d.

[Tom_Wescott]

Fanny Mortimer said that she became aware of the commotion at the club just after going inside. I believe this would have been around 12:50-12:55. This suggests to me that the couple referred to by Mortimer must have been in the area around the time Stride was murdered.

In fact, if we assume Mortimer went inside around 12:45 to 12:50 this suggests that the couple may well have been close by when Eagle returned at 12:35.

Fanny Mortimer new saw any couple. She only saw Leon Goldstein. She later spoke with a younger woman at the murder site when the crowds had gathered. This young woman told Mortimer she and her beau had walked and spent time on Berner Street earlier and must have been nearby when the murder was committed. This young woman was later spoken to by a press member and she said they'd been on the street around midnight.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[DJA]

I am of the opinion that extreme caution needs to be exercised when considering the conclusions of the Victorian GPs.

Any Forensic conclusions on the right ventricle,pale lungs and unusual flow of blood in the yard,given Stride was in possession of cashous?

The missing cashou packet might have answered a few questions.

[Tom_Wescott]

Any Forensic conclusions on the right ventricle,pale lungs and unusual flow of blood in the yard,given Stride was in possession of cashous?

The missing cashou packet might have answered a few questions.

What does this mean?

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[John G]

Well wait a minute here. Could he have actually (gasp) believed that coming forward was the right thing to do morally but like most people was reluctant to do so. I am constantly amazed how everything that Schwartz said or did is seen in a negative light.

c.d.

Hello c.d.

But his actions seem so inconsistent with what Lawende et al did, or didn't, do and what Schwartz himself failed to do at the time of the assault. Thus, if he was that public-spirired why didn't he try and find a police officer, I.e PC Smith or Lamb? After all, he seemed so alarmed by BS man that he ran-off past his own house!

And, upon discovery of the murder, didn't then decide to come forward very quickly? A complete contrast to his failure to immediatelly report the assault.

[curious4]

Any Forensic conclusions on the right ventricle,pale lungs and unusual flow of blood in the yard,given Stride was in possession of cashous?

The missing cashou packet might have answered a few questions.

I have wondered if Liz suffered from the female type of haemophilia (less dangerous than the male type. There was a male relative of hers who posted once as far as I know. Would have been interesting to know if there was a family history of it.

There is a Dorothy Sayers novel where the victim suffered from haemophilia and the time of death was shot to pieces because the victim was a haemophiliac and was still bleeding when found, leading people to believe that he had just been killed,

[Fleetwood Mac]

How feasible is it that Liz met her death at the hands of someone other than the B.S. man?

Two contra arguments immediately come to mind:

1. The short amount of time between the the B.S. man leaving the scene and the arrival of her actual killer.

This would in fact be cutting it quite short (no pun intended). Probably 15 to 20 minutes maximum which however is time enough for a second killer to strike especially if he had witnessed the scene between B.S. man and Stride.

2. How likely is it that a woman would be attacked twice, in the same place, in the space of just a few minutes?

This appears to be a strong argument on its face. However, we are not talking about a woman standing in front of a church on a Sunday afternoon surrounded by a group of people. We are talking about a single woman by herself late at night at a time when men who had been drinking earlier would be out on the streets. Keep in mind that Schwartz never said he saw a woman being "attacked" or "assaulted" but simply stated that he saw a woman thrown to the ground. Would that be so unusual especially if Liz were soliciting?

A killer other than the B.S. man eliminates the following concerns:

1. The cachous - They would not have to have survived her being thrown to the ground or fighting off the B.S. man if she took them out after the B.S. had departed and before her killer showed up.

2. Why the B.S. man would go on to kill Stride after being seen by Schwartz and the Pipeman - He didn't. He was gone from the scene before her killer showed up.

3. Why no one heard any argument post Schwartz - There wasn't one since the B.S. man had left.

4. Why Stride's clothes were not ripped or torn - She went voluntarily into the passage with the second man on the scene believing him to be a client as opposed to going into the passage with someone who had just pushed her to the ground.

5. No blows to the face or stab wounds to the body - These might be expected if the B.S. man was a domestic and killed her in anger. If the second man were the Ripper, this would account for her simply having her throat cut.

There seems to be no perfect scenario that answers every question but a second killer (and I think there was and that he was Jack) does do away with a lot of the red flags and concerns associated with the B.S. man as Stride's killer.

What say you?

c.d.

I suspect it is a massive red herring that has diverted attention away from the man seen by PC Smith.

[lynn cates]

speculation

Hello John. Thanks.

All good speculation.

Cheers.
LC