A Killer Other Than the B.S. Man?

[lynn cates]

compare and contrast

Hello CD. Thanks.

"The killer would also have to have some degree of confidence that he would not be interrupted."

Quite. But surely the risk was no greater than Hanbury?

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

thoughts

Hello Harry.

"If Schwartz saw what he claims he saw, then BS Man was the killer. It's as simple as that."

My thoughts, exactly. But, given the forensics difficulties with Schwartz's story . . .

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

Eygle eye

Hello Tom. Very good thinking--as always.

If Schwartz's story is true, then Eygle may well have tried to pull her away from the club.

His being her murderer. however, is much more tenuous.

Cheers.
LC

[Hunter]

The evidence points to Stride being taken down rapidly from behind, which would be fairly awkward if the killer was trying to rob her. What possessions these women had were kept in deep concealment of undergarments anyway.

Besides, what's the point? Total surprise would be more advantageous that putting the victim on guard with an undetermined reaction.

All of these women were apparently suddenly attacked without any forewarning.

[Wickerman]

That's a myth. The reported 'other couple' had left Berner Street a good 45 minutes before Schwartz came along.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

The stated times are not reliable Tom, it's the sequence of events that tell the story.

[Wickerman]

Kidney was cleared and was not on the street that night. I believe Pipeman was probably the man seen speaking with Stride by James Brown. Although some like to argue that Stride was with only one man that evening, it's like squeezing square pegs into round holes, because the hat descriptions are too different, and I doubt she was dating The Man of Many Hats.

True, but we can't rely on different people describing hats in the same way.
Witnesses can't even achieve that today, in broad daylight.

Take PC Smith for example, first he described the suspect's hat as a "hard felt hat", then as a "deerstalker", which is a cloth cap that folds up so you can put it in your pocket.
It can't be both.

She was soliciting that evening ....

I believe so, yes.

.... and Morris Eagle is the only man who would have had the opportunity and motive to do that. If that's the case, then either Pipeman or someone who wasn't seen that night was her killer.

So are you saying that Pipeman shouted "Lipski" at Eagle, to frighten him off, or at Schwartz?
Pipeman has two Jews to shout at now, not just one.

Shouting at witnesses to scare them off does not appear to be the Whitechapel murderer's M.O.

[John G]

I've been reflecting further on Tom's scenario and I wonder if Eagle could have been BS man. Thus, Eagle says he returned to the club around 12:35. Assuming that he had the altercation with Stride around that time, Pipeman could have approached her after Eagle went inside, perhaps even offering consolation, and maybe even the cachous.

Lave stated that he went for a smoke around 12:40 and walked as far as the street. Therefore, what if it was Lave that disturbed the killer, not Louis D? Of course, Lave didn't see a body, but it was extremely dark: Louis D originally thought he was looking down on a bundle of rags, and Lave himself couldn't even see the side door when he returned to the club.

Is it also possible that Pipeman wasn't carrying a pipe, but the parcel noted by PC Smith? Of course, there could have been difficulties with translation- in the newspaper version Pipeman is described as carrying a knife, and Schwartz's attention seemed more focussed on the altercation, and in particular BS man, than paying any real attention to Pipeman, who he only noticed when crossing the street, by which time he was probably already planning a quick exit.

[c.d.]

Hello CD. Thanks.

"The killer would also have to have some degree of confidence that he would not be interrupted."

Quite. But surely the risk was no greater than Hanbury?

Cheers.
LC

Hello Lynn,

I was implying that something at Berner Street scared him off before he could begin the mutilations.

c.d.

[c.d.]

Hello Tom,

I have no doubt that Kidney was cleared but we have no record of that, correct?

[Natasha]

It could be feasible that someone other than BS man was the killer, if for example someone had been stalking Stride.

Interesting about the Eagle man scenario.

Could it be possible that Stride's murder was an accident, and not a ripper murder? That could explain lack of mutilation, it's not like the ripper had alot of time with some of the other victims. Also the deviation of the knife wounds, sign of an unsure killer? A first time killer perhaps?

[John G]

It could be feasible that someone other than BS man was the killer, if for example someone had been stalking Stride.

Interesting about the Eagle man scenario.

Could it be possible that Stride's murder was an accident, and not a ripper murder? That could explain lack of mutilation, it's not like the ripper had alot of time with some of the other victims. Also the deviation of the knife wounds, sign of an unsure killer? A first time killer perhaps?

Hello Natasha,

Stride seems to have been overpowered quickly and silently in a risky location for a murder. Even Mrs D, who was probably sat just a few feet away, in the kitchen with the window open, neither heard or saw anything. Moreover, there is no evidence of defensive wounds, or injuries of any kind, apart from the fatal wound. And, of course, Stride holding on to the cachous suggests that she was relaxed just prior to the assault, completely oblivious of the fate that awaited her. And her killer appears to have persuaded her to go into a pitch black dark passage.

I think the evidence overwhelmingly points to an audacious murder by an experienced killer.

[Natasha]

Hello Natasha,

Stride seems to have been overpowered quickly and silently in a risky location for a murder. Even Mrs D, who was probably sat just a few feet away, in the kitchen with the window open, neither heard or saw anything. Moreover, there is no evidence of defensive wounds, or injuries of any kind, apart from the fatal wound. And, of course, Stride holding on to the cachous suggests that she was relaxed just prior to the assault, completely oblivious of the fate that awaited her. And her killer appears to have persuaded her to go into a pitch black dark passage.

I think the evidence overwhelmingly points to an audacious murder by an experienced killer.

Hi John,

But what if Stride was relaxed because the killer, in her mind, was someone who didn't pose a threat. Perhaps Stride said something that tipped the killer over the edge and he snapped. There were no defense wounds, but as she was about to walk off, he attacked her from behind.

If that seems unlikely, what do you think about the deviation of the wounds?

[John G]

Hi John,

But what if Stride was relaxed because the killer, in her mind, was someone who didn't pose a threat. Perhaps Stride said something that tipped the killer over the edge and he snapped. There were no defense wounds, but as she was about to walk off, he attacked her from behind.

If that seems unlikely, what do you think about the deviation of the wounds?

Hi Natasha,

I think that this was a planned murder. I agree that Stride didn't think that the killer posed a threat, which is one of the reasons why I think she was murdered by an experienced killer. I disagree about Stride saying something that tipped the killer over the edge. If that had occurred, I would have expected a violent argument, and perhaps a fight, to have preceded the murder. However, the killer appeared to strike without warning, at a time when Stride was relatively relaxed, oblivious of the fate that awaited her- hence she was eating the cachous.

I would also note the short window of opportunity that the killer took advantage of-Lave, Eagle, Mortimer, and the couple seen by Mortimer, neither saw or heard anything.

By "deviation of the wounds", do you mean in respect of the differences between this murder and the other C5?

[curious4]

I wonder if those who believe the killer invited Stride into the club are labouring under a misconception. It wasn't Stringfellows exactly. Pictures show benches with men, women and children in front of a stage with a piano player and a singer in a workman's apron. You didn't need to be a member to enter - it was an international working man's educational club and anyone was welcome (unless you were the police). I doubt that anything stronger than tea was served. I'm sure Liz knew this, so why would anyone think that inviting her into the club would tempt her into a dark yard in the middle of the night?

Best wishes
C4

[John G]

I wonder if those who believe the killer invited Stride into the club are labouring under a misconception. It wasn't Stringfellows exactly. Pictures show benches with men, women and children in front of a stage with a piano player and a singer in a workman's apron. You didn't need to be a member to enter - it was an international working man's educational club and anyone was welcome (unless you were the police). I doubt that anything stronger than tea was served. I'm sure Liz knew this, so why would anyone think that inviting her into the club would tempt her into a dark yard in the middle of the night?

Best wishes
C4

Hello C4,

Excellent post. However, maybe it was the only local tavern still open and serving drink! Of course, if she trusted her assailant perhaps all he really has to do, to entice her into the Yard, is to offer to by her a drink in the nearest hostelry.