A Killer Other Than the B.S. Man?

[c.d.]

How feasible is it that Liz met her death at the hands of someone other than the B.S. man?

Two contra arguments immediately come to mind:

1. The short amount of time between the the B.S. man leaving the scene and the arrival of her actual killer.

This would in fact be cutting it quite short (no pun intended). Probably 15 to 20 minutes maximum which however is time enough for a second killer to strike especially if he had witnessed the scene between B.S. man and Stride.

2. How likely is it that a woman would be attacked twice, in the same place, in the space of just a few minutes?

This appears to be a strong argument on its face. However, we are not talking about a woman standing in front of a church on a Sunday afternoon surrounded by a group of people. We are talking about a single woman by herself late at night at a time when men who had been drinking earlier would be out on the streets. Keep in mind that Schwartz never said he saw a woman being "attacked" or "assaulted" but simply stated that he saw a woman thrown to the ground. Would that be so unusual especially if Liz were soliciting?

A killer other than the B.S. man eliminates the following concerns:

1. The cachous - They would not have to have survived her being thrown to the ground or fighting off the B.S. man if she took them out after the B.S. had departed and before her killer showed up.

2. Why the B.S. man would go on to kill Stride after being seen by Schwartz and the Pipeman - He didn't. He was gone from the scene before her killer showed up.

3. Why no one heard any argument post Schwartz - There wasn't one since the B.S. man had left.

4. Why Stride's clothes were not ripped or torn - She went voluntarily into the passage with the second man on the scene believing him to be a client as opposed to going into the passage with someone who had just pushed her to the ground.

5. No blows to the face or stab wounds to the body - These might be expected if the B.S. man was a domestic and killed her in anger. If the second man were the Ripper, this would account for her simply having her throat cut.

There seems to be no perfect scenario that answers every question but a second killer (and I think there was and that he was Jack) does do away with a lot of the red flags and concerns associated with the B.S. man as Stride's killer.

What say you?

c.d.

[Wickerman]

How feasible is it that Liz met her death at the hands of someone other than the B.S. man?

The question is legitimized by the fact it was considered by Swanson in his report.

The police back then were more aware than we are today just how violent the East End was, especially at night. If Swanson didn't think two assaults in fifteen minutes was extraordinary, then we have no reason to pretend it was.

What I do find questionable is the belief that Stride was alone in that gateway, considering that whenever she had been seen that night, she was in the company of someone.
I speculate that she was already with a man in that yard, and that man was the Smith-suspect, and that he was her killer.

BS-man interrupted a liaison already in progress, but Schwartz just didn't see the second man stood further back inside the gateway, after all, his focus was on the activity directly in front of him, as brief as it was.

Otherwise, I agree with your scenario.

[Rosella]

I think it is quite feasible. The club was certainly regarded as a bit of a trouble spot by neighbours and of course it was opposite a pub.

My goodness though, the times are certainly tight.
At about 12:35 am PC Smith sees a couple, the woman wearing a flower, in Berner St on the opposite side of the street to the club and a few yards off.

Morris Eagle returned to the club at, he estimated, about 12:40 am, having seen his lady friend home. He felt his way to the side door of the club. The gates were thrown wide open but the yard was so dark he had to keep to the right hand side. He saw no-one there and no body, naturally. No couple was in the passage beginning any liaison of any sort.

At 12:45am approximately we have BS man seen by Israel Schwartz throwing a woman down on the foot way at the Dutfield Yard gate. Israel, alarmed by the shout of "Lipski!" and the demeanour of the assailant and Pipe man, runs off.

If the woman who was thrown down and BS man had staggered off in opposite (or the same direction) by about 12:50 am, (after their little domestic) couldn't the couple seen by PC Smith have gone into the yard, it being deserted by then?

It may have appealed to Jack's sense of humour to see witnesses to a fracas near the Yard and observe it with his victim, and then enter the Yard himself.

Liz would have led the way into the blackness and her client following. If the man (observed by Smith as carrying a newspaper-wrapped parcel) had throttled Liz and then cut her throat there wouldn't have been too much time to commence mutilations before the sound of Diemschutz's pony disrupted operations and Jack had to scarper into the privies.

The main objection I have to the killer being in the shadows while Liz was being thrown down is (a) why didn't she pick herself up and run back to him, and (b) if the quarrel with BS man ended after only a couple of minutes that would leave plenty of time for mutilations.

[GUT]

I think it is possible.

I remain undecided in if it is probable.

[John G]

The question is legitimized by the fact it was considered by Swanson in his report.

The police back then were more aware than we are today just how violent the East End was, especially at night. If Swanson didn't think two assaults in fifteen minutes was extraordinary, then we have no reason to pretend it was.

What I do find questionable is the belief that Stride was alone in that gateway, considering that whenever she had been seen that night, she was in the company of someone.
I speculate that she was already with a man in that yard, and that man was the Smith-suspect, and that he was her killer.

BS-man interrupted a liaison already in progress, but Schwartz just didn't see the second man stood further back inside the gateway, after all, his focus was on the activity directly in front of him, as brief as it was.

Otherwise, I agree with your scenario.

Hi Jon,

This is an interesting scenario. However, why would the man be hiding in the gateway during the Schwartz incident? After all, he'd already been seen by PC Smith and possibly Marshall, Brown and even Mortimer? And if he intended to kill Stride in Dutfield's Yards, why hadn't he already done so, considering that it was obviously a risky place to commit a murder? What was he waiting for? Moreover, why didn't Stride call upon him for assistance during the struggle with BS man? Wouldn't they have likely argued about the man's failure to intervene? When did Stride take out the cachous in this scenario?

[John G]

Hi Rosella,

I agree with you about timings. In fact, as discussed recently, it seems likely to me that the body was found before 1am, possibly as early as 12:50. The earlier time seems more consistent with witnesses statements, although Schwartz might have estimated the time he witnessed the assault wrongly.

[lynn cates]

feasibility

Hello CD. Thanks for starting this thread.

"How feasible is it that Liz met her death at the hands of someone other than the B.S. man?"

Well, in my humble opinion, IF BSM existed, he killed Liz. But, if he did NOT exist, I'd say quite feasible.

(Hope to deal with your excellent ideas below.)

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

time

Hello (again) CD. Regarding the time issue:

1. Swanson is quite right--there is indeed sufficient time for another person to have arrived. However:

2. If BSM appeared at 12.45, and IF Liz was killed by 12.50 (rough mean from inquest), the window of opportunity narrows considerably. Moreover:

3. One must consider Liz's psychological state. IF she were assaulted and IF she had no cachous out during the assault (I recognise I am preaching to the choir here), she needs to calm down and proceed into the passage. A tall order, given the narrow window--but, admittedly NOT impossible.

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

Enter ye in by the narrow gate . . .

Hello (yet again) CD. Entirely agree with your list of advantages regarding a non-BSM kill.

Perhaps your most problematic point--in my humble opinion--is about solicitation. Although I think she was not, yet, let's suppose she were.

IF she had been, the natural place to consummate such a "contract" would be BEHIND the northern most gate (the one with the wicket), in the space between it and the building (see Fido/Wescott hypothesis).

The problem is that they were BEYOND that point.

If Liz's body had been found crumpled up behind that gate, then I would heartily agree.

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

time enough

Hello Jon.

"If Swanson didn't think two assaults in fifteen minutes was extraordinary . . ."

Perhaps a tad too rich? He seems to be pointing out a possibility based upon time constraints. In other words, take a stop watch (hmm, feel like Gavin Bromley now) and stage the purported events. Time enough? Emphatically, yes.

Extraordinary? Well, I'd say so.

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

twice as nice

Hello Rosella.

"The main objection I have to the killer being in the shadows while Liz was being thrown down is (a) why didn't she pick herself up and run back to him, and (b) if the quarrel with BS man ended after only a couple of minutes that would leave plenty of time for mutilations."

Makes two of us.

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

concerns

Hello John. Your post #5 is excellent. It emphasises some of my many concerns.

Cheers.
LC

[c.d.]

Hello Rosella.

"The main objection I have to the killer being in the shadows while Liz was being thrown down is (a) why didn't she pick herself up and run back to him, and (b) if the quarrel with BS man ended after only a couple of minutes that would leave plenty of time for mutilations."

Makes two of us.

Cheers.
LC

Hello Lynn,

But time is not the sole requirement for mutilation. The killer would also have to have some degree of confidence that he would not be interrupted. If the killer were scared off, it provides an explanation of why he did not carry out the mutilations.

c.d.

[c.d.]

"The police back then were more aware than we are today just how violent the East End was, especially at night. If Swanson didn't think two assaults in fifteen minutes was extraordinary, then we have no reason to pretend it was."

Hello Jon,

That there were killers and bad men other than Jack on the streets of Whitechapel has always been preached by the multiple killer camp. So in that context, Stride's encounter with the B.S. man would seem to just be par for the course.

c.d.

[Harry D]

If Schwartz saw what he claims he saw, then BS Man was the killer. It's as simple as that. The timings are too tight and it would be some coincidence that another knife-wielding murderer (Ripper or no) happens to attack Stride minutes after an altercation. Sure it's possible, but without all the facts we're into speculation territory. We can only go on the information that we have available, and that tell us that shortly before Liz's death she was seen having an argy-bargy with a man (who fits the description from PC Smith). At some point after this she must have let her guard down and entered the yard, but we don't know the circumstances behind this.