A Killer Other Than the B.S. Man?

[John G]

If Schwartz saw what he claims he saw, then BS Man was the killer. It's as simple as that. The timings are too tight and it would be some coincidence that another knife-wielding murderer (Ripper or no) happens to attack Stride minutes after an altercation. Sure it's possible, but without all the facts we're into speculation territory. We can only go on the information that we have available, and that tell us that shortly before Liz's death she was seen having an argy-bargy with a man (who fits the description from PC Smith). At some point after this she must have let her guard down and entered the yard, but we don't know the circumstances behind this.

Hello Harry,

Yes, I tend to agree. Particularly when you consider the fact that the body was probably discovered around 12:50 and not 1:00am as Louis estimated. I think the only other possibility is that Schwartz got his timing wrong, and the incident he witnessed was much earlier.

[c.d.]

If Schwartz saw what he claims he saw, then BS Man was the killer. It's as simple as that. The timings are too tight and it would be some coincidence that another knife-wielding murderer (Ripper or no) happens to attack Stride minutes after an altercation. Sure it's possible, but without all the facts we're into speculation territory. We can only go on the information that we have available, and that tell us that shortly before Liz's death she was seen having an argy-bargy with a man (who fits the description from PC Smith). At some point after this she must have let her guard down and entered the yard, but we don't know the circumstances behind this.

Hello Harry,

Schwartz never mentioned that the B.S. man had a knife.

c.d.

[Abby Normal]

How feasible is it that Liz met her death at the hands of someone other than the B.S. man?

Two contra arguments immediately come to mind:

1. The short amount of time between the the B.S. man leaving the scene and the arrival of her actual killer.

This would in fact be cutting it quite short (no pun intended). Probably 15 to 20 minutes maximum which however is time enough for a second killer to strike especially if he had witnessed the scene between B.S. man and Stride.

2. How likely is it that a woman would be attacked twice, in the same place, in the space of just a few minutes?

This appears to be a strong argument on its face. However, we are not talking about a woman standing in front of a church on a Sunday afternoon surrounded by a group of people. We are talking about a single woman by herself late at night at a time when men who had been drinking earlier would be out on the streets. Keep in mind that Schwartz never said he saw a woman being "attacked" or "assaulted" but simply stated that he saw a woman thrown to the ground. Would that be so unusual especially if Liz were soliciting?

A killer other than the B.S. man eliminates the following concerns:

1. The cachous - They would not have to have survived her being thrown to the ground or fighting off the B.S. man if she took them out after the B.S. had departed and before her killer showed up.

2. Why the B.S. man would go on to kill Stride after being seen by Schwartz and the Pipeman - He didn't. He was gone from the scene before her killer showed up.

3. Why no one heard any argument post Schwartz - There wasn't one since the B.S. man had left.

4. Why Stride's clothes were not ripped or torn - She went voluntarily into the passage with the second man on the scene believing him to be a client as opposed to going into the passage with someone who had just pushed her to the ground.

5. No blows to the face or stab wounds to the body - These might be expected if the B.S. man was a domestic and killed her in anger. If the second man were the Ripper, this would account for her simply having her throat cut.

There seems to be no perfect scenario that answers every question but a second killer (and I think there was and that he was Jack) does do away with a lot of the red flags and concerns associated with the B.S. man as Stride's killer.

What say you?

c.d.

Hi CD
Possible, but just barely IMHO.
Personally, why I think BS man, more likely than not, is Stride's killer:

1. A man seen assaulting a woman minutes before her dead body is found, in my opinion, is always, unless he is cleared somehow and/or the witness is found to be not credible, going to be the prime suspect in her murder.

2. There is no evidence, eyewitness or otherwise, of a man seen with stride after the initial BS man assault. I think people like yourself who favor the second man theory tend to overlook this simple fact a bit too much.

3. The two attacks on the same woman in a short span of time only minutes apart, in my mind, seems much more unlikely than not.

4. The main reason though That I think BS man was her killer (and the ripper) is that there is corroboration from the witnesses that night, at the Stride scene, the Eddowes scene, and in between (the church st. man) that the suspect was wearing a peaked cap. Too much of a coincidence in my view. The ripper was wearing a peaked cap that night.

It made an impression on Abberline as well:

"...the peaked cap...tallies with the descriptions I got of him."

[Harry D]

Hello Harry,

Schwartz never mentioned that the B.S. man had a knife.

c.d.

Hello, CD.

You know what I meant.

[Tom_Wescott]

BS Man aka Morris Eagle?

I'm not convinced that BS Man wasn't Morris Eagle rudely removing a prostitute from the gateway of his club. I say this based on a few factors:

1) BS Man was removing Stride from the gateway, towards the street, and then pushed her. These actions scream 'go away' and certainly not 'come with me'.

2) Morris Eagle was the last person to arrive at the club and he entered through the kitchen, which means he went through the gateway. His arrival at the club was within 5 minutes of the time Schwartz estimates seeing BS Man.

3) Eagle denied seeing Stride, which means either he was lying or she moved into position in between the few minutes when he walked along the passage and when Schwartz came along.

4) He was described as reacting when he saw who the murdered woman in the passageway was and gave as his explanation that he doesn't like the sight of blood.

None of this is conclusive at all. BS Man and Eagle might be totally different people, or they may be one and the same. But I don't for a second think Eagle murdered Stride.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[John G]

I regard Morris Eagle as a possible suspect. In fact, he's just behind Fanny Mortimer and Mrs D in my list!

[Wickerman]

Hi Jon,

This is an interesting scenario. However, why would the man be hiding in the gateway during the Schwartz incident?

I'm suggesting Schwartz didn't notice him due to the man being further back. He doesn't need to be hiding at that point, but likely he was deeper in the shadows than Liz, who was standing on the edge of the footway.
If only Schwartz had said which way Stride was facing, standing facing the street, or looking into the yard, with her back to the street.
One view indicates she was with someone, the other suggests not.

.. And if he intended to kill Stride in Dutfield's Yards, why hadn't he already done so, considering that it was obviously a risky place to commit a murder? What was he waiting for?

He was seen with her across the street at about 12:35, perhaps they crossed the street and went deep into the back of the yard, out of sight where it was pitch black. Perhaps that is why Eagle did not see them as he came into the yard and approached the side door, about 12:40?

Moreover, why didn't Stride call upon him for assistance during the struggle with BS man?

She did, but not very loudly - why? because he was standing just feet away. There was no need for her to wake up the whole street.
BS-man may have seen him, but Schwartz didn't.

Wouldn't they have likely argued about the man's failure to intervene?

She may have scorned him for his lack of chivalry, but Stride was used to being roughed up.
In our 21st century couch-potato lives throwing a woman to the ground may seem violent to us, but not to the women who walked the streets every night.

When did Stride take out the cachous in this scenario?

She didn't, the cachous were not hers, he gave them to her as a peace offering?

John, it's only speculation, not a theory. I'm just seeing how the parts fit together, and how they don't.

[Pcdunn]

Interesting.

Okay, though, I'm a little confused. Stride was seen in the company of a man several times that night. Was he "broad-shouldered man" or not? Was he, perhaps, "peaked-cap man"?

Facts:
Stride was kicked out of her lodgings by her current man, Michael Kidney.
On the night of her murder, she is seen by several witnesses in the company of a man (or men).
Another witness saw a woman "thrown to the ground" by a "broad-shouldered man".
Finally, the pony-cart driver discovers Stride's body.

Speculation 1:
Kidney was both the broad-shouldered man and Liz's murderer. If this is true, she is not a Ripper victim. Objection: I've read that Kidney was cleared of suspicion.
Speculation 2:
Liz's escort that night was "peaked-cap man" and was the same man, despite slightly varying witness descriptions, that had been sighted with her earlier in the night. Perhaps her affair with him accounted for both her breakup with Kidney and the attack on her by the broad-shouldered man (assuming he was yet another former admirer). She met the Ripper later by an ill-turn of fate after being deserted by both men. In this case, she is a Ripper victim. Objection: This is mostly, well, speculation. And why would the Ripper lurk in a fairly well-populated area, no matter how darkened, for a prospective victim to wander by?
Speculation 3:
The altercation between the woman and broad-shouldered man was a domestic dispute not related to the case. It was not Liz Stride, but someone else. Advantage: Lets us eliminate the difficulties created by the physical evidence found on and around the body. Objection (for some, perhaps): If Stride was killed by "peaked-cap man", it seems unlikely he was Jack the Ripper, because his actions of spending time with the victim do not seem to match the M.O. of the Ripper's previous attacks. In this case, Liz is not a Ripper victim.

[Wickerman]

Let us not forget, there was another couple in the street at this time, their presence may have led to confusion.

Also, Michael Kidney appeared at the inquest, if he had been the BS-man he ran an enormous risk that someone (Schwartz?) doesn't show up and identify him as the assailant, or worse?

I can't see the attacker appearing at the inquest, whoever he was.

[Tom_Wescott]

Kidney was cleared and was not on the street that night. I believe Pipeman was probably the man seen speaking with Stride by James Brown. Although some like to argue that Stride was with only one man that evening, it's like squeezing square pegs into round holes, because the hat descriptions are too different, and I doubt she was dating The Man of Many Hats. She was soliciting that evening and most likely spoke to BS Man as he was passing, which was why he stopped. Next thing that happens is he's pulling her from the gateway then pushes her, but not INTO the passageway. That information lends itself very well to the scenario that he was removing her from the passageway, and Morris Eagle is the only man who would have had the opportunity and motive to do that. If that's the case, then either Pipeman or someone who wasn't seen that night was her killer.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Tom_Wescott]

Cachous

Stride took the cachous out when he robbed her and it simply remained lodged between her thumb and forefinger just as a paper bill would have done.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Tom_Wescott]

Let us not forget, there was another couple in the street at this time, their presence may have led to confusion.

That's a myth. The reported 'other couple' had left Berner Street a good 45 minutes before Schwartz came along.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[John G]

Kidney was cleared and was not on the street that night. I believe Pipeman was probably the man seen speaking with Stride by James Brown. Although some like to argue that Stride was with only one man that evening, it's like squeezing square pegs into round holes, because the hat descriptions are too different, and I doubt she was dating The Man of Many Hats. She was soliciting that evening and most likely spoke to BS Man as he was passing, which was why he stopped. Next thing that happens is he's pulling her from the gateway then pushes her, but not INTO the passageway. That information lends itself very well to the scenario that he was removing her from the passageway, and Morris Eagle is the only man who would have had the opportunity and motive to do that. If that's the case, then either Pipeman or someone who wasn't seen that night was her killer.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

But Lave left the club after Eagle, and he didn't see Stride, even though he walked as far as the gate. Wouldn't Schwartz have recognised Eagle?

[John G]

Stride took the cachous out when he robbed her and it simply remained lodged between her thumb and forefinger just as a paper bill would have done.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

Who was it that robbed her? Her killer? Why did she take out the cachous whilst being robbed? How dd her feet end up facing the street, suggesting she was exiting the club? Why murder Stride if robbery was the motive?

[John G]

That's a myth. The reported 'other couple' had left Berner Street a good 45 minutes before Schwartz came along.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

Fanny Mortimer said that she became aware of the commotion at the club just after going inside. I believe this would have been around 12:50-12:55. This suggests to me that the couple referred to by Mortimer must have been in the area around the time Stride was murdered.

In fact, if we assume Mortimer went inside around 12:45 to 12:50 this suggests that the couple may well have been close by when Eagle returned at 12:35.