A Killer Other Than the B.S. Man?

[Tom_Wescott]

Hello John.

"I've been reflecting further on Tom's scenario and I wonder if Eagle could have been BS man."

Yes, indeed. I think my biggest hesitation comes from his being as far away as Commercial.

Cheers.
LC

Eagle had walked his girlfriend home and was returning to the club, so it makes sense he'd be turning on to Berner Street from Commercial.

Lave went only as far as the street, but he re-entered the club PRIOR to Eagle. If BS man was anyone in the club, then it would most likely be Eagle.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Tom_Wescott]

I agree DJA. I was initially attracted to Tom's suggestion that BS man was Eagle but, after further consideration, I think it an unlikely proposition. As a local man there must be a very good chance that Schwartz would have recognized Eagle; and even if he didn't, he would surely have encountered him at a later date and reported the sighting to the police.

That means we have to assume a conspiracy between Eagle and Schwartz. However, not only would that have been risky surely, in this scenario, Eagle would have persuaded Schwartz not to come forward at all. There would have been no reason to "invent" BS man as a suspect, and no reason to take the risk of Schwartz being caught out during a police interrogation.

I don't personally believe that Eagle was BS Man. I only put it out there because it is a possibility supported by the known facts. There are many other possibilities, including the possibility that BS man never existed. I personally think he did though. But all of this merely illustrates the quagmire that is the Schwartz story. Whether or not you believe it's true, it still provides little in the way of answers, because true or not, BS Man may not have been Stride's killer.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Tom_Wescott]

Hello Natasha.

"It is very strange for him to come forward indeed. Why risk it? It doesn't make sense, unless he was covering his ass or someone elses."

Now you're talking.

Cheers.
LC

Leon Goldstein came forward to clear himself. He'd been seen by Fanny Mortimer carrying a black bag down Berner Street. For a brief time, he was the chief suspect. He came forward at the insistence (and with the interpretation skills) of William Wess, the secretary of the Berner Street Club. Perhaps Wess encouraged Schwartz the same way.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[DJA]

[QUOTE=Tom_Wescott;341672] There are many other possibilities, including the possibility that BS man never existed. I personally think he did though. BS Man may not have been Stride's killer.


At least two witnesses described a man with broad shoulders.

Implies a well fed and heavily exercised individual.

This guy stood out.

[lynn cates]

waiting

Hello John. Thanks.

"If the parcel was a collection of newspapers for distribution, wouldn't that imply that the suspect had either just left, or just arrived, at the club?"

Just left, I should imagine. If I recall properly, the AF editor had spent a good bit of that day preparing an edition.

". . . If so, this would surely have been noted by club members and, in those circumstances, I feel the man would have had no option but to come forward, as Eagle and Lave obviously did."

Not sure why such information should be volunteered?

"According to PC Smith the suspect, and Stride, were stood close to the club but on the opposite side of the street. It is therefore possible that the suspect had a parcel to deliver, but not at the club . . ."

Agreed. I am dubious of a late night delivery at the club.

" . . . and that Stride waited at the entrance for him to return."

Why?

"If what Schwartz observed was Eagle trying to move Stride on, that might help explain the altercation. For instance, if he accused her of soliciting this could, in the circumstances, have caused her to become indignant. Moreover, she may have been reluctant to move if she'd agreed to wait for someone by the gates."

No problem here.

"In this scenario, I think PC Smith's suspect becomes the most likely killer, if only because of his failure to come forward."

Many never came forward.

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

Leman-aid

Hello Jason. Thanks.

I refer to "The Star" article about the coppers at Leman disbelieving Israel's story.

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

Por que no?

Hello Abby.

"would Eagle yell an anti-semitic slur at a fellow Jew though?"

Why not?

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

girlfriend

Hello Tom. Thanks.

Do you recall where his girlfriend lived? I am drawing a blank.

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

encouragement

Hello (again) Tom. Thanks.

"Leon Goldstein came forward to clear himself."

Quite.

" He'd been seen by Fanny Mortimer carrying a black bag down Berner Street. For a brief time, he was the chief suspect. He came forward at the insistence (and with the interpretation skills) of William Wess, the secretary of the Berner Street Club."

Precisely. He had NOTHING to lose--except suspicion.

"Perhaps Wess encouraged Schwartz the same way."

Well, I DO believe that Wess and/or Eygle encouraged Schwartz. (heh-heh)

Cheers.
LC

[John G]

Hello John. Thanks.

"If the parcel was a collection of newspapers for distribution, wouldn't that imply that the suspect had either just left, or just arrived, at the club?"

Just left, I should imagine. If I recall properly, the AF editor had spent a good bit of that day preparing an edition.

". . . If so, this would surely have been noted by club members and, in those circumstances, I feel the man would have had no option but to come forward, as Eagle and Lave obviously did."

Not sure why such information should be volunteered?

"According to PC Smith the suspect, and Stride, were stood close to the club but on the opposite side of the street. It is therefore possible that the suspect had a parcel to deliver, but not at the club . . ."

Agreed. I am dubious of a late night delivery at the club.

" . . . and that Stride waited at the entrance for him to return."

Why?

"If what Schwartz observed was Eagle trying to move Stride on, that might help explain the altercation. For instance, if he accused her of soliciting this could, in the circumstances, have caused her to become indignant. Moreover, she may have been reluctant to move if she'd agreed to wait for someone by the gates."

No problem here.

"In this scenario, I think PC Smith's suspect becomes the most likely killer, if only because of his failure to come forward."

Many never came forward.

Cheers.
LC

Hi Lynn,

If PC Smith's man intended to kill Stride, it's possible that he had been trying to persuade her to go with him to a pre determined location for some time, but without success. This could explain the various sightings. In such circumstances maybe thinks had dragged on for so long that he had to complete an errand, hence the parcel.

However, he doesn't want Stride to come with him because the recipient is someone he knows well, possibly even a family member, and he doesn't want Stride be seen in his company by this person. So, he asks her to wait for him by the gates.

However, this is starting to seem a little convoluted!

[pinkmoon]

Hello Jason. Thanks.

I refer to "The Star" article about the coppers at Leman disbelieving Israel's story.

Cheers.
LC

Thanks Lynn.

[John G]

PC Smith's beat

There's an interesting, and detailed assessment on this site of PC Smith's beat by Gavin Bromley. Thus, Smith estimated that his beat took him about 25-30 minutes to complete. He further stated that he noticed the commotion at Dutfield's Yard at 1:00am. It seems therefore that it was on this basis that he estimated his sighting of Stride and the suspect to have been between 12:30 and 12:35. However, was he right?

Significantly PCs Lamb and Collins were already at Dutfield's Yard when PC Smith arrived. Now, PC Lamb estimated he'd been there for 10-12 minutes when Dr Blackwell arrived, which we know was 1:16am, suggesting that he'd arrived at about 1:05- indicating that Smith's 1:00am estimate was wrong. Moreover, PC Smith went for the ambulance shortly after his own arrival, and just as he was leaving Edward Johnston, Dr Blackwell's assistant, was arriving.

Johnston estimated the time of his arrival as being about 3 or 4 minutes before Blackwell, indicating a time of about 1:12 to 1:13. That suggests that PC Smith actually arrived at about 1:10. Taking into consideration the 25 to 30 minutes it would have taken to complete his beat, that would indicate that his sighting of Stride was actually between 12:40 and 12:45, further undermining Schwartz.

Fanny Mortimer's evidence further supports this conclusion. Thus, Diemshutz said the police arrived in the Yard about 7 minutes after the discovery of the body. If this was about 1:05, then the body would have been discovered around 12:58. Mortimer stated that she heard the arrival of the cart about 4 minutes after she went inside, suggesting a time of about 12:54. She further stated that she'd been outside for no more than 10 minutes so, say, from 12:45. However, she also said she'd gone outside shortly after hearing the "measured, heavy stamp of a policeman", presumably PC Smith, indicating that he was passing the club just before 12:45.

As I've noted before, Schwartz's evidence throws up too many red flags. To recap. Firstly, Stride would either have to have been able to maintain hold of the cachous after being thrown to the ground by BS man; or alternatively she agreed to enter the pitch black darkness of Dutfield's Yard, whilst calmly eating the cachous, with someone who had just assaulted her.

Secondly, the flower would also have to survive the assault intact, i.e. without getting damaged or dislodged.

Thirdly, Stride's lack of injuries, apart from the fatal wound. Thus, despite being thrown to the ground there were no bruises, grazes or abrasions of any kind. And, of course, her clothing wasn't damaged either.

Fourthly, the failure of anyone else to hear Stride screaming, especially Mrs D, who was probably sat a few feet away in the kitchen with the window open.

Fifthly, the failure of anyone else to witness the incident, including Mortimer. And if PC Smith was on Berner Street around 12:45, we have to explain his failure to notice BS man or pipeman, or to hear Stride screaming, i.e. as he was walking away and prior to exiting the street. And, of course, the revised timings for PC Smith gives very little time for his suspect to depart and for BS man and Pipeman to arrive on the scene.

Sixthly, Schwartz promptly coming forward. After all, Lawende et al. didn't come forward, they were discovered after police house to house enquiries. And this public-spirited approach, from an immigrant who may have been distrustful of the police, is in marked contrast to his failure to alert a police officer on the night of the assault.

Seventhly, if BS man was Marshall's man, he must have been with Stride for at least an hour, indicating someone with a patient, controlled personality. This is in marked contrast to the individual who attacked Stride in a public place in front of two witnesses.

Of course, it is possible that Schwartz's sighting was earlier and that BS man was, say, Eagle moving Stride away from the club. However, this creates lots of problems. Eagle would either after conspire with Schwartz to cover up his involvement, or we have to accept the unlikely scenario of Schwartz not recognizing Eagle or encountering him in the future. Moreover, it would surely imply a much wider conspiracy: isn't it very likely that Eagle, upon his return to the club, would have mentioned the incident with Stride? For example, the fact that he'd just moved on an undesirable, assuming he wasn't the killer, of course.

By removing Schwartz from the equations a much simpler explanation is available. Smith's suspect waits for PC Smith to leave Berner Street and then entices Stride into Dutfield's Yard, where he murders her. And, if he was interrupted, it could have been by Eagle or Lave.

[Abby Normal]

[QUOTE=DJA;341674]

There are many other possibilities, including the possibility that BS man never existed. I personally think he did though. BS Man may not have been Stride's killer.


At least two witnesses described a man with broad shoulders.

Implies a well fed and heavily exercised individual.

This guy stood out.

Hi DJA
and at least 5 witnesses describe a man wearing a peaked cap, including Schwartz's man, and the eddowes witness. My money is on the ripper wearing a peaked cap that night.

[Abby Normal]

so lets see.
Instead of the man seen attacking Stride we have Pipeman, man lurking in shadows, Eagle, Kidney (?!?), pseudo club conspiracy--am I missing someone? Oh yes-Second Man.

The simple fact is that the prime suspect in her death, must be BS man. Im not saying its impossible that any of these other characters could have done it. Sure its not against the law of physics-but come on lets be reasonable here.

[John G]

so lets see.
Instead of the man seen attacking Stride we have Pipeman, man lurking in shadows, Eagle, Kidney (?!?), pseudo club conspiracy--am I missing someone? Oh yes-Second Man.

The simple fact is that the prime suspect in her death, must be BS man. Im not saying its impossible that any of these other characters could have done it. Sure its not against the law of physics-but come on lets be reasonable here.

Hi Abby,

I agree with most of these points. I don't think Pipeman or Eagle killed Stride. I don't think Eagle was BS man. I don't think Kidney killed Stride. And I doubt there was a club conspiracy. However, I think Schwartz either lied or, like Spooner, his timing were seriously wrong and that he witnessed the incident much earlier. I think Stride was killed by PC Smith's suspect and possibly interrupted by Eagle or Lave.

You mention the killer probably wearing a peaked cap. PC Smith's suspect was wearing a deerstalker, don't they sometimes have a peak?