The Cachous

[Trevor Marriott]

Hello (again) Errata. Thanks.

Your ideas have nothing to disallow. However, like you, I am not happy with Liz being in the yard with her back to her slayer. If he precedes her, walks west, her following, he stops and turns east to chat, I have no problem. Also, if she decides to have a cachou whilst talking--no problem. But I find it odd that, at this point, she pivots 180 to retrieve one.

I think you see what I mean.

Cheers.
LC

By the sound of your directions could he have had a sat nav

https://www.trevormarriott.co.uk

[curious4]

Numbness

Hello Lynn, Errata and John,

Beg forgiveness for my less than clear posts, an addiction to Facebook has pained my sense....

Anyway, I contend that there IS evidence of strangulation. The clenched hand and the fact that the scarf was frayed by the cut to the throat - the scarf must have been tautv for this to happen. Also that Liz must have been silenced quickly. Had she been conscious, she would have screamed and struggled at the sight of a knife approaching her throat.


My favourite source: lifeloom.com/II4Aggrawal.htm, for choking/throttling info says this: "When a victim is attacked from the back without warning, and strangled by grasping his throat or throwing a ligature over the neck and tightening it quickly, it is as garrotting. It can overpower and kill even a healthy robust male without any struggle. Loss of consciousness is so rapid that the assailant is able to single-handedly tie the ligature with one or more turns.

In Scotland Yard Investigates, there is a slightly different version of Schwartz' statement. He grasps her with one hand on her shoulder. This leaves one hand free to twist the scarf, but (unless he is a three handed killer) no hand free for the knife. Did his companion, provided he was his companion, provide the knife? Or even do the cutting? An unconscious Liz would be easy to position.


John, I don't think we should worry too much about the word used to descrbethe ground. What is important is that she was lowered to the ground.



Best wishes,
C4

Phone seems to be on delayed action - this has been a b****r to write!

[lynn cates]

pivot

Hello (again) Errata. Thanks.

Your ideas have nothing to disallow. However, like you, I am not happy with Liz being in the yard with her back to her slayer. If he precedes her, walks west, her following, he stops and turns east to chat, I have no problem. Also, if she decides to have a cachou whilst talking--no problem. But I find it odd that, at this point, she pivots 180 to retrieve one.

I think you see what I mean.

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

laid to rest

Hello Errata.

"I confess I may be missing something, but what makes you so sure she was throttled? There's no bruising, no rope burn, no signs of strangulation, no injuries to her throat indicating an attempt to loosen to hold... I'm looking at the medical evidence and I'm not seeing it.

Not that it wouldn't make perfect sense that the scarf might have cut off her air flow for a second or two, but I don't see anything to make me think that there was any serious injury even attempted in that way."

Quite so. Wish we could lay all this to rest once and for all.

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

question

Hello Abby.

"Why didn't the police at the time rule out BS man due to the Cachous?"

Well, perhaps the lads at Leman DID. And at inquest, I believe this packet prompted Baxter's question.

Cheers.
LC

[John G]

Hi John.

Two questions; where does her liaison with the parcel-man at 12:35 seen by PC Smith, come into play?
And, as you appear to accept Schwartz being there, then do you also accept the part where Schwartz says he followed BS-man walking down Berner St. towards Dutfields Yard?
That part reads like BS-man came upon Stride standing in the gateway rather than him already being in her company.

Hello Jon,

PC Smith is clearly an issue, so I'll therefore modify the scenario. Firstly, the parcel that PC Smith saw needn't have been anything sinister. After all, Goldstein's black bag turned out be completely innocuous.

Okay. I will hypothesis that BS man intends to kill Stride but not in that locality- because he lives close by and he decides that would be too risky. He's been trying, therefore, to persuade her to go with him to another pre-planned location. However, possibly because this is some distance away Stride has been reluctant to agree.

Unfortunately for him things have dragged on so long that he now has an errand to complete-the parcel relates to the errand. He asks Stride to wait for him by the club gates whilst he drops off the parcel: The person he needs to give the parcel to is known to him and may even be a family member; he is therefore reluctant to allow this person to see Stride in his company.

What Schwartz subsequently witnesses is the man returning to Stride. He now decides things have dragged on far too long and he's rapidly losing patience: He makes one final attempt to persuade Stride to go with him. When she still refuses, he gets frustrated and tries to pull her into the street, as witnessed by Schwartz, by way of further encouragement. However, as noted in the earlier post, she pulls back, loses her balance, spins round, and falls to the ground (Schwartz, unaware of the context, wrongly interprets this as Stride being thrown to the ground.)

He now decides that she is unlikely to be persuaded to go with him to the location so he has to improvise. He therefore tricks her into going with him into Dutfield's Yard as described in my earlier post.

[Wickerman]

Okay, here's a BS man scenario. Let us assume that BS man was also Marshall's suspect. He's been trying to persuade Stride to come with him to a pre-planned location for some time but she refuses. Perhaps he looses patience, they have an argument and Stride walks away, stopping by the gates of the club- after all, if she felt threatened she could have been attracted by the music and singing and, to that extent, the public nature of the club would represent a possible place of refuge.

Hi John.

Two questions; where does her liaison with the parcel-man at 12:35 seen by PC Smith, come into play?
And, as you appear to accept Schwartz being there, then do you also accept the part where Schwartz says he followed BS-man walking down Berner St. towards Dutfields Yard?
That part reads like BS-man came upon Stride standing in the gateway rather than him already being in her company.

[Abby Normal]

Hi Abby,

Of course Thompson was also an opium addict, so that could be something else in favour of his candidacy, I.e his addiction may have affected the balance of his mind. However, I certainly wouldn't rule out Kosminski- although I've been a bit negative on the other thread Jeff does mention, I believe, that he lived near Berner Street and the police certainly regarded him as a major suspect.

Okay, here's a BS man scenario. Let us assume that BS man was also Marshall's suspect. He's been trying to persuade Stride to come with him to a pre-planned location for some time but she refuses. Perhaps he looses patience, they have an argument and Stride walks away, stopping by the gates of the club- after all, if she felt threatened she could have been attracted by the music and singing and, to that extent, the public nature of the club would represent a possible place of refuge.

However, BS man's not giving up. He approaches Stride and makes a final attempt to persuade her to come with him. When she refuses, he looses his temper and tries to pull her into the street, I.e by Iway of encouragement. Stride pulls back, causing her to loose her balance, spin round and fall to the ground.

After seeing off Schwartz and Pipeman, BS man profusely apologizes, and offers Stride the cachous- or she takes the cachous out herself, to help her relax and regain her composure.

She accepts the cachous from BS man. Why? Firstly, she's wary of further offending him. Secondly, she doesn't really regard him as a serious threat, more a bit of an over-persistent pest. After all, we know from Marshall's account that he could be charming, and if he really meant to harm her why hasn't he done so before now? And such a well-dressed, mildly-spoken, educated- sounding man seems about as far removed from JtR as she can imagine. He also bought her a flower earlier in the evening so he can't be all bad! She also accepts that the incident witnessed by Schwartz was an accident.

By way of further apology, he suggests that they go to the club, perhaps intimating that he's a member. Stride's amenable to this: the man really does seem apologetic and it appears he's genuinely trying to make amends; anyway, she's attracted to the sounds of revelry, I.e the music and singing. Moreover, the club's a public place so if BS man starts to become unpleasant again she can seek assistance.

They walk into the Yard to gain access via the side door; this might be another opportunity for Stride to take out the cachous, I.e to freshen her breath prior to entering the club. However, this is just a ruse on BS man's part. He realizes that he has to modify his plans; Stride is unlikely to go with him to the pre-planned location and, although not an ideal place to commit murder, at least Dutfield's Yard is cloaked in darkness.

However, as they enter the Yard Stride suddenly becomes wary. She realizes that there's something about the man she just doesn't trust, which is partly why she refused to go with him earlier. In the pitch-black darkness of the Yard she senses him breathing down her neck, as he closes the distance, knife drawn, prepared to strike.

However, at that moment a wary Stride suddenly changes her mind. She turns around and quickly walks off at an angle towards the gate. Tense, she grips the cachous tightly.

BS man is initially caught off guard and slow to react; and in the pitch black darkness it's not immediately apparent that Stride is heading for the exit. However, he quickly regains control of the situation. He turns around and rapidly closes the distance between himself and his victim. He catches her from behind, quickly bringing her to the ground, where he slits her throat.

What do you think?

I like it. I like it a lot

[c.d.]

For the Cashoo Crowd:

Please explain if its so apparent that stride being found with caschous in her hand excludes BS man from being her killer, then why did none of the police at the time think so?

Also, many very knowledgable experts in ripperology put forth a convincing argument that it was Schwartz that was actually the witness in the Kosminski ID. If this is the case then obviously the police valued his story and took him for a credible witness, and very well beleived that BS man WAS Strides killer, no?

Hello Abby,

We have no record of how the police investigated the Stride killing so there is no way to determine if they took the cachous into consideration.

If you are touting the expertise of the police at the time we know that they did not catch Stride's killer nor did they catch anyone associated with the Whitechapel murders. They simply might have failed to see the significance of the cachous.

We don't know for certain that Schwartz was the witness in the Seaside Home identification. We do know however that Swanson mentioned the possibility of another killer besides the B.S. man in his report.

c.d.

[John G]

Hi JohnG
Re FT-Im HIGHLY skeptical of many modern suspects, especially ones who have no apparent ties to the case and who weren't considered by the police or are even mentioned peripherally having to do with the case (ie. like witnesess etc.). But I keep an open mind.

I will say hes an interesting character and deserves further research. But hey, apparently Tolkien liked his writing so hes got that going for him! ; )

Hi Abby,

Of course Thompson was also an opium addict, so that could be something else in favour of his candidacy, I.e his addiction may have affected the balance of his mind. However, I certainly wouldn't rule out Kosminski- although I've been a bit negative on the other thread Jeff does mention, I believe, that he lived near Berner Street and the police certainly regarded him as a major suspect.

Okay, here's a BS man scenario. Let us assume that BS man was also Marshall's suspect. He's been trying to persuade Stride to come with him to a pre-planned location for some time but she refuses. Perhaps he looses patience, they have an argument and Stride walks away, stopping by the gates of the club- after all, if she felt threatened she could have been attracted by the music and singing and, to that extent, the public nature of the club would represent a possible place of refuge.

However, BS man's not giving up. He approaches Stride and makes a final attempt to persuade her to come with him. When she refuses, he looses his temper and tries to pull her into the street, I.e by way of encouragement. Stride pulls back, causing her to loose her balance, spin round and fall to the ground.

After seeing off Schwartz and Pipeman, BS man profusely apologizes, and offers Stride the cachous- or she takes the cachous out herself, to help her relax and regain her composure.

She accepts the cachous from BS man. Why? Firstly, she's wary of further offending him. Secondly, she doesn't really regard him as a serious threat, more a bit of an over-persistent pest. After all, we know from Marshall's account that he could be charming, and if he really meant to harm her why hasn't he done so before now? And such a well-dressed, mildly-spoken, educated- sounding man seems about as far removed from JtR as she can imagine. He also bought her a flower earlier in the evening so he can't be all bad! She also accepts that the incident witnessed by Schwartz was an accident.

By way of further apology, he suggests that they go to the club, perhaps intimating that he's a member. Stride's amenable to this: the man really does seem apologetic and it appears he's genuinely trying to make amends; anyway, she's attracted to the sounds of revelry, I.e the music and singing. Moreover, the club's a public place so if BS man starts to become unpleasant again she can seek assistance.

They walk into the Yard to gain access via the side door; this might be another opportunity for Stride to take out the cachous, I.e to freshen her breath prior to entering the club. However, this is just a ruse on BS man's part. He realizes that he has to modify his plans; Stride is unlikely to go with him to the pre-planned location and, although not an ideal place to commit murder, at least Dutfield's Yard is cloaked in darkness.

However, as they enter the Yard Stride suddenly becomes wary. She realizes that there's something about the man she just doesn't trust, which is partly why she refused to go with him earlier. In the pitch-black darkness of the Yard she senses him breathing down her neck, as he closes the distance, knife drawn, prepared to strike.

However, at that moment a wary Stride suddenly changes her mind. She turns around and quickly walks off at an angle towards the gate. Tense, she grips the cachous tightly.

BS man is initially caught off guard and slow to react; and in the pitch black darkness it's not immediately apparent that Stride is heading for the exit. However, he quickly regains control of the situation. He turns around and rapidly closes the distance between himself and his victim. He catches her from behind, quickly bringing her to the ground, where he slits her throat.

What do you think?

[Abby Normal]

Hi Abby,

I think whatever happened has to be fairly implausible, and Stride holding onto to cachous is probably far from being the least plausible solution! I agree about the need to be open minded-reading Dr Biggs' analysis has lead me to conclude that hardly any of the opinions expressed by the Victorian GPs can be relied upon. In fact, it seems that even modern forensic science is unable to come up with much in the way of definitive conclusions. It's a pity that Trevor didn't ask him for an opinion about the cachous!

I agree that the suspect list is pretty weak. As you know, one of my favourite candidates is Thompson: may have lived near one of the victims, had medical training, carried a scalpel, only serious relationship was with a prostitute, mutilated dolls (or a doll) and started fires. However, the only evidence that he expressed violence towards women is in his poetry. On that basis maybe Robert Browning should be elevated to major suspect status! To say nothing of William Sickert, who painted "Jack the Ripper's Bedroom"!

Hi JohnG
Re FT-Im HIGHLY skeptical of many modern suspects, especially ones who have no apparent ties to the case and who weren't considered by the police or are even mentioned peripherally having to do with the case (ie. like witnesess etc.). But I keep an open mind.

I will say hes an interesting character and deserves further research. But hey, apparently Tolkien liked his writing so hes got that going for him! ; )

[Errata]

Hello Errata. You make several good points. I like a model that includes a shakedown.

I think my biggest difficulty is finding her assailant deeper in the yard (to the west) and behind her.

Any likely scenario?

Cheers.
LC

There is nothing likely. I mean, the whole murder is just a problem, logic wise.

It is a possibility that after being tossed to the ground (if we are going with Schwartz's account) Stride's assailant managed to convince her that the immediate threat was over, which can happen pretty quickly. A 'I'm sorry, let's talk about this reasonably" sort of approach. He helps her up, because they were interrupted he says "let's take this somewhere more private" and they duck into the yard. She lets her guard down, pulls out a cachous, she says something he didn't like, he kills her.

Vague I know. But it eliminates some weird guy hanging out in a yard for no reason. Which makes things easier. On the other hand, I'm having a hard time coming up with something she could know or have worth dying for. Or what offense she could have committed worth killing for. It's why I have to default to something involving gangs. Which makes me cringe to even type it. But in that day and age, the only person who is going to kill Liz Stride aside from a jealous ex or a serial killer is a gang member. She might get hit by a trolley, but she is not really in a position to be murdered for a lot of reasons. And there's always a reason.

What strikes me is that even today in the world of petty crime and gangs, the two things that get you murdered are either betrayal or as an example. There is nothing to suggest she had contact with gangs to the point she could betray one, though she had run a pretty nice con. And she could have been killed as a lesson to others, but the method used was similar enough to the Ripper killings that it would not be unforeseen that her murder would get folded into that. So unless they killed her to send a message to Michael Kidney, that message was wasted. And they should have known that. But mistakes happen, so I don't know. But on the other hand I don't know what the example is supposed to be, thought I suppose they can't all be Mexican Narco murders where notes are conveniently pinned on the victim's chest. Or maybe she had already used up her last warning, and she was always going to die that night, or the next, or the next, whenever they caught up with her. Maybe she stole something.

But if not that, there are other options.

In modern society if you dress well and carry a clipboard you can go just about anywhere. You can go into a strangers basement if you have a good spiel to go with the clipboard. It's the master key of modern society. Back then it was a bucket. A guy with a bucket can go anywhere, get past anything. Because the bucket tells you two things. The guy has a reason to go where he's going, and that reason is not interesting. So a guy with a bucket watches the fight, after Schwartz runs off he walks up to the gate, says "excuse me" and goes in and waits. If he knows she cleans the place occasionally, he can be reasonably sure she'll go into the yard or pass the gate again at some point. Even watching the fight he knows there's a good chance she will retreat to the yard. It's a good place to wait, even if he's only going to watch her or follow her. When she goes back there, it's a guy with a bucket, so not interesting and potentially gross. So she's not worried about him. She would probably ignore him. She's not planning on staying in the yard that long.

There's ways it works, but none of them are good ways. Most of them involve some dicey maneuvering. Creating decision points where she could go a different way, or make a different choice, and then it doesn't happen.

The only sure way to make sure it happens in a particular way is that her attackers physically pick her up and carry her into the yard where they kill her. And it would explain why there's no mud, no injuries. It might even explain why she held on to the cachous, because someone has a hold of her hands. It might even explain the blood evidence. I just have no idea why they would do that. Dragging should have been fine, except it didn't happen. And nothing prevents her from screaming unless some very weird juggling is going on.

It's a problem.

[Errata]

Hello Errata,

And yet the killer did get his hand in and throttle her with it. From the medical evidence. A neckerchief was somewhat larger than a man`s hanky of (fairly) recent memory.Before tissues, that is.

Best wishes,
C4

I confess I may be missing something, but what makes you so sure she was throttled? There's no bruising, no rope burn, no signs of strangulation, no injuries to her throat indicating an attempt to loosen to hold... I'm looking at the medical evidence and I'm not seeing it.

Not that it wouldn't make perfect sense that the scarf might have cut off her air flow for a second or two, but I don't see anything to make me think that there was any serious injury even attempted in that way.

[John G]

Hi JohnG
Thanks-I appreciate your response!

To be quite frank, while we are all being so open minded, I must admit in the past I never even considered the caschous as any kind of issue. Because of this thread, and good and valid points brought up by the other side I have to say now I do see how they COULD be a problem. Ive upgraded them to yellow flag status! seriously. My mind has been swayed abit. (just a bit).

Yes re the suspects-they are all weak, some are just less weak than others. I have about half dozen who I think are valid suspects, but keep an open mind about most.

Hi Abby,

I think whatever happened has to be fairly implausible, and Stride holding onto to cachous is probably far from being the least plausible solution! I agree about the need to be open minded-reading Dr Biggs' analysis has lead me to conclude that hardly any of the opinions expressed by the Victorian GPs can be relied upon. In fact, it seems that even modern forensic science is unable to come up with much in the way of definitive conclusions. It's a pity that Trevor didn't ask him for an opinion about the cachous!

I agree that the suspect list is pretty weak. As you know, one of my favourite candidates is Thompson: may have lived near one of the victims, had medical training, carried a scalpel, only serious relationship was with a prostitute, mutilated dolls (or a doll) and started fires. However, the only evidence that he expressed violence towards women is in his poetry. On that basis maybe Robert Browning should be elevated to major suspect status! To say nothing of William Sickert, who painted "Jack the Ripper's Bedroom"!

[Abby Normal]

Hi Abby,

Yes, I basically agree. In fact, the issue of the cachous wasn't discussed in detail at the inquest, so I would doubt that the police had even considered the problem. And I accept that if the police had substantial evidence against a suspect, such as an identification which took place in proper circumstances, from a witness who was prepared to testify, I'm sure the cachous problem, and the numerous other difficulties with Schwartz's testimony, would not have prevented the suspect from being charged. Although, of course, these issues may have been raised in his defence.

However, none of that actually happened. Neither BS man, Kosminski or anyone else was ever charged with any of the Whitechapel murders. The best we have is a suspect, who may or may not have been Kosminksi, being identified in improper circumstances, by a witness, who may or may not have been Schwartz, who refused to testify anyway. Nonetheless, I'm sure he had a very nice day out at the seaside. I wonder if they let him have a go on the bouncy castle!

Hi JohnG
Thanks-I appreciate your response!

To be quite frank, while we are all being so open minded, I must admit in the past I never even considered the caschous as any kind of issue. Because of this thread, and good and valid points brought up by the other side I have to say now I do see how they COULD be a problem. Ive upgraded them to yellow flag status! seriously. My mind has been swayed abit. (just a bit).

Yes re the suspects-they are all weak, some are just less weak than others. I have about half dozen who I think are valid suspects, but keep an open mind about most.