The Cachous

[curious4]

Assualt

Hello Abby,

Sorry, can`t agree. Liz was more than aware of the dangers facing a woman on the streets (Dr Barnado´s visit to the lodging house). Had she escaped, nothing would have tempted her back into the yard. And even if she had lost her sixpence, she still had the length of velvet back at her lodgings which she could have sold, so I doubt that she was looking for customers.

Best wishes,
C4

[Abby Normal]

Hello Jon,

PC Smith is clearly an issue, so I'll therefore modify the scenario. Firstly, the parcel that PC Smith saw needn't have been anything sinister. After all, Goldstein's black bag turned out be completely innocuous.

Okay. I will hypothesis that BS man intends to kill Stride but not in that locality- because he lives close by and he decides that would be too risky. He's been trying, therefore, to persuade her to go with him to another pre-planned location. However, possibly because this is some distance away Stride has been reluctant to agree.

Unfortunately for him things have dragged on so long that he now has an errand to complete-the parcel relates to the errand. He asks Stride to wait for him by the club gates whilst he drops off the parcel: The person he needs to give the parcel to is known to him and may even be a family member; he is therefore reluctant to allow this person to see Stride in his company.

What Schwartz subsequently witnesses is the man returning to Stride. He now decides things have dragged on far too long and he's rapidly losing patience: He makes one final attempt to persuade Stride to go with him. When she still refuses, he gets frustrated and tries to pull her into the street, as witnessed by Schwartz, by way of further encouragement. However, as noted in the earlier post, she pulls back, loses her balance, spins round, and falls to the ground (Schwartz, unaware of the context, wrongly interprets this as Stride being thrown to the ground.)

He now decides that she is unlikely to be persuaded to go with him to the location so he has to improvise. He therefore tricks her into going with him into Dutfield's Yard as described in my earlier post.

Hi JohnG
Your new scenario has pointed out something that I never thought of before. In my scenario, they are standing by the gates when BS man gets frustrated and walks away, only to lose his temper and return and attack stride. this is where Schwartz enters-as BS has turned around and is going back to stride.

But it could have happened that they were up the street a bit and stride left him, walking back toward the gate and stopping there. And then BS man follows her(enter Schwartz) and attacks her in front of the gate.


I never thought it plausible that a woman/prostitute would follow a man who just attacked her into a secluded area. But points made on this thread have made me reconsider. Such as-it was not that bad of an assault. Whitechapel prostitutes probably were accustomed to this sort of thing. It eliminates the caschous problem.

And as I pointed out earlier, perhaps once she realized this guy was not going to be a new boyfriend, sugar daddy type, maybe she should just make the most of it, acquiesce, and make some money. So they enter the yard and she takes out the caschous. you suggested the rest and I find this scenario very possible.

[curious4]

Practice

Hello Lynn

Practice makes perfect?

Gwyneth

[lynn cates]

interview

Hello John. Thanks.

Not to mention, he granted a press interview--possibly initiating it.

Cheers.
LC

[John G]

Hello John. Thanks.

I agree. A meeting is more likely than a waiting bloke.

And, yes, a prearranged murder seems unlikely. I used to think it was done to implicate the club. Okhrana chief, Piotr Rachkovski, had just come to London and, well . . .lots of research here.

Cheers.
LC

Hello Lynn,

I did wonder if Lave could be a plausible suspect. However, if he was responsible he would have to be completely stupid: he not only admitted leaving the club at around 12:40, he even stated that he walked as far as the gate!

[lynn cates]

first two

Hello Gwyneth. Thanks.

"I have always gone with the idea that the killer only choked his victims into insensibility before cutting their throats."

Of course, with Polly and Annie, he seems to have gone much further.

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

Rachkovski

Hello John. Thanks.

I agree. A meeting is more likely than a waiting bloke.

And, yes, a prearranged murder seems unlikely. I used to think it was done to implicate the club. Okhrana chief, Piotr Rachkovski, had just come to London and, well . . .lots of research here.

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

pocket

Hello Harry.

In my view, that's nearly correct. I think she had just RETRIEVED the cachous from her pocket.

Cheers.
LC

[curious4]

Words

Hello Lynn,

You are quite right. I should choose my words more carefully. I have always gone with the idea that the killer only choked his victims into insensibility before cutting their throats.

I wonder whether the 15 minutes between Schwarz and Diemschutz could have been taken up with waiting for the coast to be clear. By all accounts there were a good many people coming and going, and Jack may have expected to find the club empty after the lecture, not people having a late night singsong? Hanging about in the shadows waiting for an opportunity to finish I mean and then finally giving up when Diemschutz arrived.

Best wishes,
Gwyneth

[John G]

Hello John. Thanks.

OK, but what rules out:

1. a meeting at the side door?

or

2. a bloke hiding in the yard?

Cheers.
LC

Hello Lynn,

Essentially nothing. However, I regard those options as far less likely scenarios. Thus, why would someone be hiding in the Yard? I mean, it seems implausible to me that someone would be hiding in the Yard, spider-like, hoping that a victim would fall into his web.

Meeting at the side door is a far more plausible but this creates other problems. For instance, if the person planned to kill Stride surely there were better locations, and better nights, to arrange an ambush. Moreover, the killer would be taking an enormous risk that his absence from the club would be noticed, particularly if someone remembers it was around the time that Stride was probably killed.

If murder was not the intent, it's difficult to imagine a scenario in which there wouldn't have been some sort of argument, or at least heated discussion, that proceeded the assault. And, if that was the case, why did nobody hear anything, particularly Mrs D? And, of course, the other difficulty is that it would surely be probable that someone would have noticed this person's absence and subsequent return to the club.

Regarding the cachous, it does seem to indicate that Stride was relatively relaxed: would that have been the case if she was expecting to be involved in an argument with someone, I.e because she'd decided to break off a relationship? And, if she wasn't expecting trouble, and the murder wasn't planned, what could possibly have happened, in such a short period of time, to make the man want to kill her?

[harry]

What if,at the moment the killer struck,Stride had her hands in her pockets?Would that make a difference?

[lynn cates]

alternatives

Hello John. Thanks.

OK, but what rules out:

1. a meeting at the side door?

or

2. a bloke hiding in the yard?

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

detective work

Hello Trevor. Thanks.

Well, you're the detective. Are my directions correct?

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

tight

Hello Gwyneth. Thanks.

OK, if you mean pulling the scarf tight for two seconds, very well.

But that's not quite what I mean by strangulation.

Cheers.
LC

[John G]

Hello (again) Errata. Thanks.

Your ideas have nothing to disallow. However, like you, I am not happy with Liz being in the yard with her back to her slayer. If he precedes her, walks west, her following, he stops and turns east to chat, I have no problem. Also, if she decides to have a cachou whilst talking--no problem. But I find it odd that, at this point, she pivots 180 to retrieve one.

I think you see what I mean.

Cheers.
LC

Hello Lynn,

That's why I think, whatever the scenario, that Stride must have changed her mind. In other words, she enters the passage with the man, reasonably relaxed. However, something doesn't feel right to her. Maybe it's something he says or does. In any event, she changes her mind, turns round and heads for the exit. Her killer responds, perhaps after being caught off guard initially, follows behind, eventually pulling her to the ground and slitting her throat.