The Cachous

[curious4]

Hello John

Oh dear, I obviously haven't been clear enough:

Tries to pull her into street

Grasps shoulder, turns her round possibly moving her further in

Twists scarf tight, she passes out

Grasping both shoulders lowers her (unconscious) to ground and positions her (she's unconscious, no struggle)

Cuts throat

Presume we have to agree to disagree.

C4

[John G]

Hello John

Isn't that splitting hairs a little?

C4

Hello C4,

No, I think it's highly relevant. Dr Phillips clearly thought that the faint marks were caused by the killer grabbing hold of her shoulders. If she was propelled backwards several feet into the Yard, and failed to break her fall, instead opting to hold onto the cachous, you would surely have expected significant injuries- she may have even been knocked unconscious! But, as Dr Phillips said, there were no abrasions of any kind.

[curious4]

Hello John

Isn't that splitting hairs a little?

C4

[John G]

Hello John,

I believe there were bruises on her shoulders.

C4

Hello C4,

Foreman of the Jury: " Did you notice any marks or bruises about the shoulders?"

Dr Phillips: " They were what we call pressure marks. At first they were very obscure...they were not what are ordinarily called bruises; neither is there any abrasion."

Foreman of the Jury: "How recently might the marks have been caused?"

Dr Phillips: " That is rather difficult to say."

Another issue is that if Stride cried out in the Yard, I think Mrs D would've heard her, as she was most likely just a few feet away, in the kitchen with the window open.

[curious4]

Hello John,

I believe there were bruises on her shoulders.

C4

[John G]

Hello C4,

I think, as I said, you would have to virtually re-write Schwartz's account to fit with your scenario, which seems similar to Jon Guy's. Thus, Schwartz refers to BS man pulling Stride towards the street, I.e he had hold of her arm. In this context, spinning, or turning, her around and then throwing her to the ground makes sense. It doesn't make sense from the perspective of "forcing" her to the ground. If he intended to kill her in the Yard, why pull her towards the street. And killing her in the street, in front of witnesses, would be a crazy idea.

Moreover, the police account mentions her being thrown on to the footpath, which is clearly outside the Yard. Also, she ends up several feet inside the yard, so if he did push her it must have been with tremendous force: I doubt the cachous would have survived intact- as I've said before, I think she would have put her hand down to break the fall.

And, if pushed back with that degree of force, why no evidence of bruising, or damage to the skin or clothing of any kind? If she didn't break her fall, why is there no evidence of impact damage, I.e to her head and back? Moreover, it was pitch-black dark inside the Yard, so how could Schwartz be certain of what happened?

[curious4]

Hello Abby,

Thank you. The biggest weakness, of course is why Liz was standing in the gateway of the yard. Did she know the man who was pulling at her? Was she just very unlucky and was taken by JTR when her escort was not with her, gone to buy some food perhaps? If he came back later, she would not be in sight and he might think she had just gone home. Obviously he was not going to admit that he was with her most of the evening.

Or is there a scenario where there were two or three men involved in (to them) a kind of game. No 1 "woos" Liz, giving her a good time, being charming, flowers, cachous etc, gets her to the venue, No 2 is Pipeman, the lookout, and No 3 is the slightly drunk one who does the deed.

Or was it a domestic? Personally I think Kidney was more of a fist and kicks man than a throat-cutter, but I could be wrong.

Hello John,

Seems you either believe that there were slight mistakes in the translation or not. As someone who worked for many years with translations, I can say that mistakes are made, sometimes really grave ones, on a regular basis. As to the pulling and pushing I refer to my earlier post.

Best wishes,
C4

[John G]

Hi John,

Let's try it this way. The B.S. man and Liz are on the street when last seen by Schwartz. The B.S. man needs to get her into the yard in order to kill her and not be seen. Let's assume he does not drag her but she goes willingly. He says let's go back into the yard. She says what for and the B.S. man says ----.

What reason does he give her?

c.d.

Hello c.d.

As I've pointed out in other posts, if he suggests that the incident witnessed by Schwartz was an accident, and if BS man was the same as Marshall's man, he can get Stride into the Yard by offering to take her to the club for a drink, i.e by way of apology, and so she can enjoy the singing and music. There was a side door, which was used by both Lave and Eagle. He could therefore have told Stride that they needed to enter the Yard in order to access the club via the side door.

[John G]

But who should Schwartz have seen at 12.45 ?

The altercation clearly would have taken some time, rather than, say, two people just going into the Yard together. I just think it's a little convenient that the incident happened, according to Schwartz, at 12:45: apparently just after Mortimer went in doors, whilst the couple seen by Mortimer had apparently left, and just after PC Smith, Eagle and Lave were in the vicinity.

[c.d.]

Hi c.d,

Well, if it was a domestic incident, rather than, say, JtR, that does put a different complexion on things. If murder were his intent, however, the Yard was a far better option than the busy, and relatively well-lit, street.

Hi John,

Let's try it this way. The B.S. man and Liz are on the street when last seen by Schwartz. The B.S. man needs to get her into the yard in order to kill her and not be seen. Let's assume he does not drag her but she goes willingly. He says let's go back into the yard. She says what for and the B.S. man says ----.

What reason does he give her?

c.d.

[John G]

Hello John,

I am afraid this still does not answer my question. Assuming the B.S. man was NOT a client but rather a domestic and he does not pull Liz into the yard but rather that she went voluntarily, what would they be going in to the yard to do that they couldn't do in the street?

c.d.

Hi c.d,

Well, if it was a domestic incident, rather than, say, JtR, that does put a different complexion on things. If murder were his intent, however, the Yard was a far better option than the busy, and relatively well-lit, street.

[Jon Guy]

I think it undermines his account to the extent that no one else saw the altercation with BS man, even though several people were in the locality around the relevant time.

But who should Schwartz have seen at 12.45 ?

[John G]

Hello Abby,

I am, as you are, open to all possibilities, provided there are no gaping holes in the theory. As I said, a possible slip-up in translation (I was a translator), could have had the killer forcing (not throwing) Liz to the ground, she was standing in the gateway, possibly having taken a few steps in, the killer twists her scarf, she passes out very quickly and holding the scarf taut, he cuts along the line of the scarf, fraying the edge and obliterating any marks. (She is now lying just inside the gates in the shadows).

I think Schwartz' man was the killer, the fifteen minutes delay caused by waiting in the shadows for the coast to clear. He/they would put themselves at great risk of being seen if they left the yard leaving a body behind them. Far easier to leave in the chaos after the body was found. I also believe he underestimated the number of people who would be out and about in the area at the time.

Best wishes,
C4

I think the difficulty with this scenario is that you would have to virtually re-write Schwartz's account. The police report says that BS man was pulling, not pushing, Stride into the street- the opposite direction to the yard. BS man is described as throwing Stride down, not forcing, on to the footpath, which is clearly outside the yard anyway. Moreover, I still doubt the cachous would have survived Stride being forced to the ground.

[John G]

How does that undermine his account, John ?
How would he know no-one other than those people he saw were about at that time ?

Hello Jon,

I think it undermines his account to the extent that no one else saw the altercation with BS man, even though several people were in the locality around the relevant time. It leaves a very short window for this incident to have taken place, whilst no one else, I.e Mortimer, were present.

[John G]

Hello John

Polly Nichols, Kate Eddowes?

Best wishes,
C4

Hello C4,

Nichols was most likely killed when it was very dark and there were few people about; in contrast Berner Street seemed to be fairly well- lit and there were lots of people about. Miitre Square was largely commercial and Eddowes was killed in the darkest part of the Square.