The Cachous

[Abby Normal]

Hello Darryl,

If you don't believe that the B.S. man was her killer then we are in agreement.

c.d.

Hi CD and DK
we have a woman who was found murdered shortly after being seen by a witness being attacked by a man. A man who fits several witness descriptions of being in Strides company and later with a second murder victim.

A man wearing a peaked cap.

I think its safe to say this man killed stride and probably eddowes too.

to rule out this man based on the fact that she was found murdered clutching something in her hand is silly IMHO.


and added to this that today we know that people can go through incredibly violent trauma (like a car accident and yes murder) and still be found clutching something in their hand.


the cashoo is a red herring.

[Bridewell]

Hello Garza,

When I say she was thrown down I am not talking about her death but about her being thrown to the ground by the B.S. man according to Schwartz. Her being thrown down is unrelated to how she was found in death.

I don't doubt Schwartz's testimony since Stride was still alive when he left the scene according to him. I do take into account that he came into the situation while it was in progress and couldn't understand what was being said.

I believe Schwartz but I don't think Stride's killer was the B.S. man.

c.d.

I tend to believe him as well. I have more of a problem with excluding BS Man because, for him not to be the killer, an assumption has to be made that the same woman was attacked twice in quick succession by two different assailants - which seems unlikely.

[Abby Normal]

I tend to believe him as well. I have more of a problem with excluding BS Man because, for him not to be the killer, an assumption has to be made that the same woman was attacked twice in quick succession by two different assailants - which seems unlikely.

yup-add that to my list above too

[c.d.]

I agree that a woman being "attacked" in quick succession by two different assailants is quite unlikely. But what if she was not really "attacked" but simply pushed to the ground by some drunk man on his way home from the pub and not in a good mood? Then everything changes.

And let's keep in mind that Stride was not standing in a crowd on a Sunday afternoon in front of a church. She was a single woman out standing on a lonely street right at a time when many drunk men were out and about. Is it so unlikely that she simply said something that a drunk man took offense at and that he gave her a shove and called her a bitch as he left the scene?

That scenario (which Swanson allowed for in his report) eliminates a number of problems with the B.S. man as her killer:

1. It eliminates the cachous problem if she took them out after he left and no longer felt threatened.

2. It explains why the B.S. man would go on to kill Stride after being seen by Schwartz and the Pipe Man. The answer is he didn't.

3. It explains why Stride's clothes were not torn or ripped. She was not dragged into the passageway by the B.S. man.

4. It explains (to a certain extent) Stride's "small screams" in that she really didn't feel threatened by the B.S. man.

5. It explains why no one in the club heard any sounds after Schwartz left the scene. They testified that they would have heard anything through the open window despite the singing in the club. There was no argument or struggle since the B.S. man had left.

So try not to get hung up on words like "attacked" or "assaulted" as they are heavily loaded. And remember that Schwartz did not see Stride being killed only pushed. She was alive when he left.

Try to see it as a simple street dust up which was most likely quite common at the time and everything changes.

c.d.

[c.d.]

"to rule out this man based on the fact that she was found murdered clutching something in her hand is silly IMHO."

Hello Abby,

I have never claimed that nor do I know anybody who has. It is simply a clue and a very strong one in my opinion. It is simply one of the many problems with the B.S. man as her killer.

[Wickerman]

It's easy to judge the treatment of a woman by today's standards, based on that I would agree it is difficult to accept a woman today being assaulted twice in 15 minutes.

This is the late 19th century, this was the East End, and this was a prostitute.
I think those factors play a role in how such a woman out at night might be treated.

[c.d.]

"and added to this that today we know that people can go through incredibly violent trauma (like a car accident and yes murder) and still be found clutching something in their hand."

Hello Abby,

I agree. There are instances of this happening but is it the norm or is it an anomaly?

c.d.

[Abby Normal]

I agree that a woman being "attacked" in quick succession by two different assailants is quite unlikely. But what if she was not really "attacked" but simply pushed to the ground by some drunk man on his way home from the pub and not in a good mood? Then everything changes.

And let's keep in mind that Stride was not standing in a crowd on a Sunday afternoon in front of a church. She was a single woman out standing on a lonely street right at a time when many drunk men were out and about. Is it so unlikely that she simply said something that a drunk man took offense at and that he gave her a shove and called her a bitch as he left the scene?

That scenario (which Swanson allowed for in his report) eliminates a number of problems with the B.S. man as her killer:

1. It eliminates the cachous problem if she took them out after he left and no longer felt threatened.

2. It explains why the B.S. man would go on to kill Stride after being seen by Schwartz and the Pipe Man. The answer is he didn't.

3. It explains why Stride's clothes were not torn or ripped. She was not dragged into the passageway by the B.S. man.

4. It explains (to a certain extent) Stride's "small screams" in that she really didn't feel threatened by the B.S. man.

5. It explains why no one in the club heard any sounds after Schwartz left the scene. They testified that they would have heard anything through the open window despite the singing in the club. There was no argument or struggle since the B.S. man had left.

So try not to get hung up on words like "attacked" or "assaulted" as they are heavily loaded. And remember that Schwartz did not see Stride being killed only pushed. She was alive when he left.

Try to see it as a simple street dust up which was most likely quite common at the time and everything changes.

c.d.

Hi cd
I think bs man, aka peaked cap man was the man seen by the other witnesses. He had spent considerable time and possibly money on liz trying to finagle her into a secluded place with no avail. He loses patience leaves her loses his temper shortly after returns to her(this is where schwartz comes in) and assaults her. During the struggle he pulls her scarf tight cuts her throat and knowing he wont have time to do his thing takes off. Stride with her throat cut makes her way towards the men singing and help but expires in the yard.

She had the cashoo in her hand during the wandering about period with him(maybe he had bought them for her and the flower also) and just simply held on to them during the attack.

This is the simplest and most reasonable and explains all the little sub mysteries to my mind.

[c.d.]

There are assaults and then again there are assaults. Pinching a woman on the butt and striking her repeatedly in the face with a brick are both assaults but is there a distinction between the two? Schwartz never uses the word assault or attack or brutal. He simply says he saw a woman pushed to the ground. Since she is found dead fairly soon after are we conflating the two events and assuming that whatever the B.S. man did had to be a vicious assault? That might be a big mistake.

c.d.

[Darryl Kenyon]

These where hard times and Liz was a prostitute. She could have been trying to solicit BS, he could have taken offence at, she could have tried asking him for some money and if he told her to Fxxx oxx she might have answered back which again he took offence at or whilst she was trying to solicit him she could have had her hand in his pocket trying to pinch money whatever. I am not trying to judge Liz but it is a fact of life in Victorian England people where desperate and would try and rob you etc for a bed for the night. Assaults where common.

[c.d.]

These where hard times and Liz was a prostitute. She could have been trying to solicit BS, he could have taken offence at, she could have tried asking him for some money and if he told her to Fxxx oxx she might have answered back which again he took offence at or whilst she was trying to solicit him she could have had her hand in his pocket trying to pinch money whatever. I am not trying to judge Liz but it is a fact of life in Victorian England people where desperate and would try and rob you etc for a bed for the night. Assaults where common.

Hello Darryl,

This seems like a very reasonable scenario. There is no reason to assume that Liz didn't do anything wrong and that what took place was all orchestrated by the B.S. man. It is also possible that the "push" was an accident.

I started a thread entitled A Modern Day BS Man/Liz Encounter in which the woman was the instigator in the scene that I witnessed. If I did not understand English it would have been very easy to believe that she was the victim. Poor Schwartz was at a distinct disadvantage speaking and understanding only Hungarian.

c.d.

[c.d.]

Hi cd
I think bs man, aka peaked cap man was the man seen by the other witnesses. He had spent considerable time and possibly money on liz trying to finagle her into a secluded place with no avail. He loses patience leaves her loses his temper shortly after returns to her(this is where schwartz comes in) and assaults her. During the struggle he pulls her scarf tight cuts her throat and knowing he wont have time to do his thing takes off. Stride with her throat cut makes her way towards the men singing and help but expires in the yard.

She had the cashoo in her hand during the wandering about period with him(maybe he had bought them for her and the flower also) and just simply held on to them during the attack.

This is the simplest and most reasonable and explains all the little sub mysteries to my mind.

Hello Abby,

Except Schwartz only described her being pushed to the ground not being killed. She is alive when he left. The other big problem here is why would the B.S. man kill her after being seen by Schwartz and the Pipe Man? Not a smart move on his part. If he leaves before killing her he is only guilty of pushing a woman to the ground hardly a hanging offense.

c.d.

[Wickerman]

That is the strongest argument against BS-man being the killer, that he was seen assaulting Stride close-up by a man who fled the scene.

One important unanswered question is why was Stride standing alone in that gateway to begin with?
Which then begs another question, was she truly alone?

This, to my mind, is the missing link in this drama. There had to be another person we know nothing about. In the fifteen or so minutes between the assault by BS-man, and the discovery of her body by Diemschutz, someone else came on the scene.
Or, possibly this person was already at the scene, he just never left.

The last man Stride was seen with, at 12:35 or thereabouts, was 'Parcel-man'. The man described by PC Smith.
I'm inclined to think Stride & Parcel-man crossed Berner-street and entered Dutfields Yard. This was when BS-man staggered by, he noticed Stride and Parcel-man, and what they were up to.
From the published descriptions it seems to me BS-man was stronger built than Parcel-man. BS-man was not intimidated by Stride's wimpy companion, and being partly drunk began to throw his weight around, castigating Stride for plying her trade in public, he cast her to the ground.
This is when Schwartz passed by and witnessed the altercation, but not noticing Parcel-man in the shadows.

Parcel-man may have been Stride's killer.

[c.d.]

"That is the strongest argument against BS-man being the killer, that he was seen assaulting Stride close-up by a man who fled the scene."

Hello Wick,

Men not man. Schwartz and the Pipe Man or so it would seem.

c.d.

[Wickerman]

A man wearing a peaked cap.

I think its safe to say this man killed stride and probably eddowes too.

The descriptions of the two men are not the same though.

BS-man is described as:
"...aged about 30, height 5ft 5in, complexion fair, hair dark, small brown moustache, full face, broad shoulders; dress, dark jacket and trousers, black cap with peak"

Whereas the man in Duke street:
"...age 30, height 5ft 7 or 8in., complexion fair, moustache fair, medium build; dress, pepper-and-salt colour loose jacket, grey cloth cap, with peak of the same material, reddish neckerchief tied in knot; appearance of a sailor."

Schwartz was close enough to see a red neckerchief if BS-man wore one.
And BS-man was smaller but larger built with broad-shoulders & a black peaked cap, whereas the man in Duke street was "medium build" with a grey peaked cap, and had the appearance of a sailor.

I don't think the timing of Eddowes murder (at roughly 9 minutes?) can permit the couple seen by Lawende to have been Eddowes & her killer anyway.
But, the descriptions appear to me to be different men.