The Cachous

[Wickerman]

Hello Jon. Thanks.

"Right, so she grasps at her throat with both hands, which suggests the cachous would not be in her hand at this time, so where were they?"

Why not in her hands? Her hands would clench and move towards her throat/neck. In fact, this is essential to my narrative.

Hi Lynn.
Well, my concern is an application of special pleading.
If it can be argued that Stride could not have held onto those cachous while being thrown down by BS-man, I don't think it is fair to then claim that she could have held onto them while grasping at the scarf being pulled tight around her throat.
I think the instinct to let go of anything in her hand, to free up the fingers to pull and scratch at the scarf would be overwhelming.

"This is why the packet was found between the fingers of her left hand, they slipped out from under her cuff and lodged between the thumb and forefinger."

Most unlikely. See why?

Tucking a handkerchief or something small up the sleeve, when you have no pockets, was a very common practice for the ladies, in the day.

[lynn cates]

inward

Hello Errata. Thanks.

They opened inward--as you supposed. And between the opened gate and the building would be the perfect place to fulfill the contract.

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

furtive

Hello Jon. Thanks. I agree about special pleading.

"If it can be argued that Stride could not have held onto those cachous while being thrown down by BS-man, I don't think it is fair to then claim that she could have held onto them while grasping at the scarf being pulled tight around her throat."

Actually, I agree. But, as I have observed, her hands clenched and moved towards her throat. This, however, was a furtive movement as her throat was cut immediately. So, I don't think she EVER opened her fingers.

Does this help explain my thinking better?

Cheers.
LC

[Garza]

I have an idea about the cachous, it came to me when a spider climbed onto my fiancee lol.

It is possible even likely that Jack the Ripper did a pretense at first to rob the victims (objects on the ground).

Maybe JtR put a knife to Liz Stride and pretended to rob her. What if she did something actually really normal. She simply froze, out of terror and panic and didn't move an inch, keeping a grip on those cachous.

That is actually the I believe the simplest answer why those cachous were in her hand.

1. She took her "client" to a dark passageway.
2. She got her cachous out to put on in her mouth as she likely prepare to perform oral sex on her client.
3. Client takes out and knife and demands he money.
4. She freezes in terror, gripping the cachous in her hand.
5. Client pushes her to the ground (to be honest she is so terrified and compliable he might not even have to push her) and cuts her throat.

[Herlock Sholmes]

I have an idea about the cachous, it came to me when a spider climbed onto my fiancee lol.

It is possible even likely that Jack the Ripper did a pretense at first to rob the victims (objects on the ground).

Maybe JtR put a knife to Liz Stride and pretended to rob her. What if she did something actually really normal. She simply froze, out of terror and panic and didn't move an inch, keeping a grip on those cachous.

That is actually the I believe the simplest answer why those cachous were in her hand.

1. She took her "client" to a dark passageway.
2. She got her cachous out to put on in her mouth as she likely prepare to perform oral sex on her client.
3. Client takes out and knife and demands he money.
4. She freezes in terror, gripping the cachous in her hand.
5. Client pushes her to the ground (to be honest she is so terrified and compliable he might not even have to push her) and cuts her throat.

Hi Garza,

I can’t see why we would need the robbery motive? Just being attacked with the knife would have been enough for her to have clenched her hand containing the cachous.

Just a response to your point 2. Sweet smelling breath isn’t a prerequisite before oral sex.

[DJA]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catechu

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hereditary_hemorrhagic_telangiectasia

https://photos.casebook.org/displayimage.php?album=34&pos=4

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henry_Gawen_Sutton

[Abby Normal]

Hi Garza,

I can’t see why we would need the robbery motive? Just being attacked with the knife would have been enough for her to have clenched her hand containing the cachous.

Just a response to your point 2. Sweet smelling breath isn’t a prerequisite before oral sex.

Hi HS and Garza
those dam cashews!!!

But I agree with you both-for whatever reason she simply held on to them during the attack.

[Garza]

Hi Garza,

I can’t see why we would need the robbery motive? Just being attacked with the knife would have been enough for her to have clenched her hand containing the cachous.

There is some clues that its possible Jack the Ripper used a robbery ruse before he struck. Maybe this happened quite regularly to prostitutes in the East End and it was an easy way to keep their hands busy while he struck.

Just a response to your point 2. Sweet smelling breath isn’t a prerequisite before oral sex.

Haha I agree its not a prerequisite. The cachous I believe were not to freshen the breath, but to overpower the taste sensors while performing the said act. In the working class East End, I am sure hygiene was not as good as it is now. And I'm sure prostitutes there and then had to deal with very unclean male genitalia with the disgusting odours and tastes that come with that. Some street prostitutes today use chewing gum for the same effect.

[Garza]

Hi HS and Garza
those dam cashews!!!

But I agree with you both-for whatever reason she simply held on to them during the attack.

It seems to me to be the most simplest explanation. Some people fight, some people flee, some people freeze.

[Varqm]

There is some clues that its possible Jack the Ripper used a robbery ruse before he struck. Maybe this happened quite regularly to prostitutes in the East End and it was an easy way to keep their hands busy while he struck.



Haha I agree its not a prerequisite. The cachous I believe were not to freshen the breath, but to overpower the taste sensors while performing the said act. In the working class East End, I am sure hygiene was not as good as it is now. And I'm sure prostitutes there and then had to deal with very unclean male genitalia with the disgusting odours and tastes that come with that. Some street prostitutes today use chewing gum for the same effect.

What are the clues? I think it was simpler to put the victim in some "arranged" position - killer behind the back, and he went for the kill immediately.Announcing a robbery might cause a scream,it was a robber after all not a killer.

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[c.d.]

It seems to me to be the most simplest explanation. Some people fight, some people flee, some people freeze.

But keep in mind that it is not just the attack. The cachous (which were only wrapped in tissue) had to survive Liz being thrown to the ground. The natural response is to spread your hands when you hit the ground to help break your fall. They also had to withstand her getting to her feet. Again the natural response is to spread your hands and put your weight on them pushing yourself up. If she was dragged into the passage again the natural response would be to try to push your attacker away with palm outstretched in which case the cachous would most likely have fallen to the ground.

Yes, some people do freeze and might have been the case here but that to me seems quite unlikely given all that the cachous had to withstand. I think the logical conclusion is that she took them out after the B.S. man had left.

c.d.

[Garza]

What are the clues? I think it was simpler to put the victim in some "arranged" position - killer behind the back, and he went for the kill immediately.Announcing a robbery might cause a scream,it was a robber after all not a killer.

---

Tom Wescott did an article about it. I was skeptical at first, but while not definite it is a possibility. The clue is the objects thrown about the ground in some of the murders, not of the women's pockets were ripped - how did they fall out? It might be different if the killer laid them out in a pattern, but there seems to be no pattern at all.

[Garza]

But keep in mind that it is not just the attack. The cachous (which were only wrapped in tissue) had to survive Liz being thrown to the ground. The natural response is to spread your hands when you hit the ground to help break your fall. They also had to withstand her getting to her feet. Again the natural response is to spread your hands and put your weight on them pushing yourself up. If she was dragged into the passage again the natural response would be to try to push your attacker away with palm outstretched in which case the cachous would most likely have fallen to the ground.

Yes, some people do freeze and might have been the case here but that to me seems quite unlikely given all that the cachous had to withstand. I think the logical conclusion is that she took them out after the B.S. man had left.

c.d.

How do we know she was thrown down though? Witnesses to the dead Liz Stride state she looked like she was "placed" there. There was no dirt or firm on her dress, except on the side she lay on. You are right. When a person is thrown, they usually aim to land on their bum or/and they move their hands to break the fall. There was no dirt, grim and scratches on Stride's hands. Another reason why I am so skeptical of Schwartz's testimony.

It could be that he put a knife to the throat and say get down on the ground and she complied.

It could be he told her to that, and she still froze not moving and realising she was frozen her pushed her downwards (not with violence) by putting hands on her shoulders (the marks on her shoulder area) and pushing down - she complied and he cut her throat.

[Varqm]

Tom Wescott did an article about it. I was skeptical at first, but while not definite it is a possibility. The clue is the objects thrown about the ground in some of the murders, not of the women's pockets were ripped - how did they fall out? It might be different if the killer laid them out in a pattern, but there seems to be no pattern at all.

So announce a robbery or threaten,during the robbery,while the victims were still alive, the ripper put his hands or hand if holding the knife (or asked her),in the pockets and throw out the things,position her and kill? Or kill her as soon as possible and after she died he went for souvenirs.

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[c.d.]

Hello Garza,

When I say she was thrown down I am not talking about her death but about her being thrown to the ground by the B.S. man according to Schwartz. Her being thrown down is unrelated to how she was found in death.

I don't doubt Schwartz's testimony since Stride was still alive when he left the scene according to him. I do take into account that he came into the situation while it was in progress and couldn't understand what was being said.

I believe Schwartz but I don't think Stride's killer was the B.S. man.

c.d.