The Cachous

[Jon Guy]

Hi Jon,

the article you mention sounds very interesting, though.

Hi John

Yes, I hope someone can recall it (possibly the author).
They even found a connection between the other club and the house in Batty Street where Israel Lipski lodged.

[John G]

Hi John

Yes, I hope someone can recall it (possibly the author).
They even found a connection between the other club and the house in Batty Street where Israel Lipski lodged.

Hi Jon,

Of course, following the discovery of the Pinchin Street Torso, possibly by the same railway arches that Schwartz said he ran to, they found the words "Lipski" written nearby in large chalk letters!

[Jon Guy]

Hi Jon,

Of course, following the discovery of the Pinchin Street Torso, possibly by the same railway arches that Schwartz said he ran to, they found the words "Lipski" written nearby in large chalk letters!

Yes, that was Charles Cross who did that, apparently.

[John G]

Yes, that was Charles Cross who did that, apparently.

Hi Jon,

Charles Cross? If I remember rightly wasn't he JtR? Or maybe I'm getting muddled!

[Jon Guy]

Hi Jon,

Charles Cross? If I remember rightly wasn't he JtR? O

Yes, that`s him.
His sister in law lived near Pinchin Street so the general conclusion is that he writ it.

[Errata]

This is sort of a bunch of things in one

C4:

I'll give it to you, that's not nothing. Now the speed at which silk frays depends on a lot of things, and the clenched hand mechanism that comes from strangulation is the irritation of the vagus nerve which can also come from the throat cut. I don't think it happened, but I can now see the argument. If one believes her to be a victim of the Ripper, that could be an argument for it. But it isn't an argument against someone else being the killer.

Lynn:

Her killer didn't have to be behind her. It's easier if he was, it makes more sense that he was, why would she just stand there and be murdered if he wasn't... but we don't know how the attack was initiated. There is a series of moves that makes sense for her to end up where she ended up with the mud and the stains etc. But even a little thing like handedness or a loose stone could have altered everything from the best way to do it, you know?

But it's a Gordion knot of had to happen and could not happen. The whole murder is problem. Which really in my mind lends to it not being done by a stranger. If you know someone you make it complicated. If you don't, then you don't.

Harry

Stride didn't have especially useful pockets. She had one in an underskirt she would have accessed by basically shoving her arm down her overskirt and locating the pocket underneath. She probably could have lifted the overskirt, but with rain that's kind of gross. So it's a great place to store things you need to carry but don't need to pull out. I think she had a mirror shard in there. But she wouldn't keep the cachous there. I think they were tucked in her bodice. And its not to say that a woman can't lean against a private wall and stick her hands in her bodice to warm them up... it's not the most comfortable position. Humiliating if you get caught that way, but it happens.

Speaking as costumed refugee that is.

[Abby Normal]

Hello Abby,

Sorry, can`t agree. Liz was more than aware of the dangers facing a woman on the streets (Dr Barnado´s visit to the lodging house). Had she escaped, nothing would have tempted her back into the yard. And even if she had lost her sixpence, she still had the length of velvet back at her lodgings which she could have sold, so I doubt that she was looking for customers.

Best wishes,
C4

hi curious
just looking at other possible scenarios and keeping an open mind.
But I agree, I think more than likely she would not have gone with him willingly after the initial attack into the yard. who knows.

[lynn cates]

perfection

Hello Gwyneth. Thanks.

Well, let's hope so. I have practised for years, but so far, not yet. (heh-heh)

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

instructive

Hello Abby. Your post #382 is very interesting.

Can you continue with a scenario where Liz and BSM enter the yard and she ends up dead?

It would be helpful to identify:

1. placement

2. motivations, etc.

I think this may be quite instructive.

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

suggestion

Hello John. Regarding a club conspiracy--presumably to kill Liz--I know of NO one who suggests that.

Any critical reading, however, should disabuse one of such a notion. Of course, critical reading skills are at a premium.

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

alternatives

Hello Errata. Thanks.

"There is a series of moves that makes sense for her to end up where she ended up with the mud and the stains etc."

Agreed. But I am waiting for an alternative to mine to be reproduced.

More than happy to discuss.

Cheers.
LC

[John G]

Hi Lynn,

What about this. Let's assume that BS man and Marshall's man are the same person. Now, on the face of it, he doesn't seem particularly threatening, far from it. Marshall described him as well-dressed, well-spoken and educated. He appeared charming, and may even have bought Stride a flower. And, of course, in this scenario Stride would have been with him for at least an hour, during which time he doesn't attack her.

However, let us assume he's been trying to persuade Stride to come with him to a predetermined murder location but she refuses. They have an argument and Stride walks off to the gate. BS man doesn't follow immediately- he's weighing up his options, thinking he might be better off looking for another victim.

But he changes his mind. He makes one last attempt to persuade Stride to come with him and walks towards her. They have a brief discussion before he grabs her arm and pulls her toward the street by way of encouragement, and out of frustration. Unfortunately, Stride looses her balance and falls to the ground, a scene wrongly interpreted by Schwartz.

After seeing off Schwartz he noticed how dark Dutfield's Yard is and decides it's a plausible alternative murder location. He apologizes to Stride for the "accident" and by way of further apology he suggests they go to the club where he'll buy her a drink- perhaps he informs her he's a club member.

She agrees- after all, he's been pleasant for most of the evening and she accepts what happened was probably an accident and out of character for the man.

She takes out the cachous to help her relax after the incident witnessed by Schwartz, and also to freshen her breath prior to entering the club.

[curious4]

Perhaps she just had a very, very sweet tooth! (Sorry Liz)

No, I still feel that the translation was faulty. After all, "she screamed..but not loudly". A scream is by its nature loud, unless from a distance. Instantaneous translation is the hardest - you have to find the correct words very quickly and if you can't think of the correct word at once, it is tempting to substitute another with a similar meaning. "Threw her to the ground" and "forced her to the ground" aren't far from each other.

If she was forced down the cachous would very likely stay in her hand and if throttled, the hand would clench. The cachous had to be prised out from between the finger and thumb.


Best wishes
C4

[John G]

Personally I don't see how Schwartz could have misinterpreted what he saw to the extent that Stride was forced, rather than thrown to the ground. Thus, according to Schwartz BS man was trying to pull Stride into the street. As he didn't succeed she clearly resisted. It also implies that he had hold of at least one arm, and the fact that she spun around suggests she was loosing her balance. Thrown to the ground, in this context, clearly makes sense. However, how would you force someone to the ground in that way? Surely, forced suggests she was pushed downwards, rather than pulled and spun around.

[curious4]

Hello John,

"Turned her round", not "spun her round". I think you just proved my point.

Best wishes
c4