The Cachous

[John G]

Hello C4,

Yes, the police report isn't very clear. However, "threw her down" suggests something very different to me than "forced her down." In fact, this suggests that she was propelled, or even hurled, to the ground. Moreover, I feel that "turned her round" could be interpreted as "spun her round", without seeming too contrived. "Forced" also suggests he had hold of, say, her shoulders, whereas "pull" and "throw" strongly implies that he had hold of her arm.

And, as I've said before, I think it's possible that Stride simply lost her balance as the man attempted to pull her away from the club, whilst she was resisting.

In such a scenario, I think it would be a lot easier to imagine BS man persuading Stride to go with him into the Yard, as he could portray what happened as an unfortunate accident, rather than an attempt to cause Stride harm.

[curious4]

What's in a word

Hello John,

No, sorry, think you are carrying your speculation a little too far here. If he simply wanted to throw her to the ground, or off-balance, why turn her round? He could quite easily, by putting his hands on her chest and giving a shove push her to the ground. Turning her round indicates that he wanted to get to the scarf and quickly render her senseless, before cutting her throat.

Best wishes
C4

[c.d.]

If the B.S. man was a client, then I can possibly see Liz going back into the yard with him after an apology and maybe even an offer of more money but even so I think she would be extremely reluctant to do so. But if this was a domestic, for what purpose would they need to go into the yard?

c.d.

[John G]

Hello C4,

Well, he could have turned her around as he was trying to pull her into the street. The question is: why was he trying to get her into the street? I've speculated that he was acting out of frustration, trying to persuade Stride to come with him. In this scenario he wasn't intending to kill or harm Stride at this particular time- she simply lost her balance.

However, I still don't see how "thrown" can be reasonably interpreted as "forced". And if he intended to force Stride to the ground, with the intention of cutting her throat, why would he do this in front of two witnesses and on a public footpath? If he was intending to cut her throat at that time why was he trying to get her into the street- surely he didn't think that the middle of the street would be an ideal place? Why wasn't his knife already drawn?

[John G]

If the B.S. man was a client, then I can possibly see Liz going back into the yard with him after an apology and maybe even an offer of more money but even so I think she would be extremely reluctant to do so. But if this was a domestic, for what purpose would they need to go into the yard?

c.d.

Hello c.d,

But if BS man was Marshall's man she would be much more inclined to trust him. After all, this man was well-dressed, well-spoken, even charming, and seemed educated. Plus Stride may have been with him for over an hour- he may even have bought her a flower- so he wouldn't have been a complete stranger.

And, as I've noted in other posts, maybe BS man wasn't intending to harm Stride at that time, but just trying to encourage her to go with him; hence he pulls her in the direction of the street. And, as I've noted, he could have portrayed the incident of Stride hitting the floor as an accident, I.e she lost her balance as he was trying to encourage her away from the gate.

[c.d.]

Hello John,

But the question is what are they going to do in the yard that they couldn't do in the street?

c.d.

[curious4]

Hello John

He liked to display his victims in a place where people would see the bodies. If he wanted to implicate the Jews, outside the club may have occured to him as a good place. Inside the yard the body would have been seen first by jews, as it was.

His knife was most probably within easy reach - unless pipeman/knifeman was holding it for him (speculation warning) leading us to a theory where several men were involved as in Emma Smith's case.

Best wishes
C4

[John G]

Hello John,

But the question is what are they going to do in the yard that they couldn't do in the street?

c.d.

Hello c.d.

The street would clearly be a highly risky place to commit a murder, as evidenced by the presence of Schwartz and Pipman. Dutfield's Yard was far less risky because it was cloaked in pitch black darkness- Lave couldn't even see the door to get back in, so had to feel around the wall in order to orientate himself. It was also sat back from the street, out of range of the prying eyes of, say, Fanny Mortimer and PC Smith.

If her killer was BS man, I would speculate that he was trying to pull her away from the Yard in order to encourage her to come with him to a safer location. In effect, he was acting out of frustration- if he was Marshall's suspect he may have been trying to persuade her for some time.

However, having failed in this endeavour he resorts to plan B, regarding the pitch black darkness of Dutfield's Yard as a reasonable alternative. How does he get her into the Yard? Well, as I've speculated before, he first of all portrays the incident witnessed by Schwartz as an unfortunate accident: Stride simply lost her balance as she resisted his attempt to pull her into the street.

He then apologizes and entices her into the Yard by offering to buy her a drink in the club, where she can also enjoy the singing and the music. And, of course, she may be much more amenable to this idea if BS man is the same as Marshall's well-spoken, charming suspect. Stride might also have been attracted to the offer of the club because she doesn't want to upset him again whilst he's being reasonable and trying to make amends. Moreover, it's a public place, so if BS man becomes unpleasant again she can always seek assistance.

[John G]

Hello John

He liked to display his victims in a place where people would see the bodies. If he wanted to implicate the Jews, outside the club may have occured to him as a good place. Inside the yard the body would have been seen first by jews, as it was.

His knife was most probably within easy reach - unless pipeman/knifeman was holding it for him (speculation warning) leading us to a theory where several men were involved as in Emma Smith's case.

Best wishes
C4

Hi C4,

As I've noted on my reply to c.d I think the street would be an extremely risky place to commit a murder, and a crazy place to carry out mutilations if that was his intent. I mean, it was clearly a relatively busy, and reasonably well lit place. Just prior to the incident, witnessed by both Schwartz and Pipeman, we have the presence of Fanny Mortimer, the couple referred to by Mortimer, PC Smith, Lave, Eagle, Goldstein and Louis D.

JtR was clearly a risk taker, but I don't think he was completely crazy!

[Jon Guy]

. I mean, it was clearly a relatively busy, and reasonably well lit place. Just prior to the incident, witnessed by both Schwartz and Pipeman, we have the presence of Fanny Mortimer, the couple referred to by Mortimer, PC Smith, Lave, Eagle, Goldstein and Louis D.

Bit of a coincidence that Schwartz saw BS Man at a time when we know none of the above were about.

Lucky or what.

[John G]

Bit of a coincidence that Schwartz saw BS Man at a time when we know none of the above were about.

Lucky or what.

Hello Jon,

Yes, I agree, and that is a factor that clearly undermines Schwartz's account. However, it could be coincidental, or Schwartz may have got his timing wrong. Moreover, there is certainly one big coincidence that is undeniable: someone went into Dutfield's Yard with Stride and it must have happened when none of those other witnesses were present. Unless, of course, you support the club conspiracy theory!

[Abby Normal]

Hello Abby. Your post #382 is very interesting.

Can you continue with a scenario where Liz and BSM enter the yard and she ends up dead?

It would be helpful to identify:

1. placement

2. motivations, etc.

I think this may be quite instructive.

Cheers.
LC

Sure.
She now has acquiesced to have sex so she takes the caschous out as they enter the yard. she positions herself with her back against the wall facing him. he suddenly goes for the throat as per his usual MO grasping her scarf, choking her with that as he lowers/forces her to the ground. Takes his knife out, cuts her throat, but then before he mutilates takes off because of diemshitz, or a sound from the club.

As for motivation-hes the ripper, and he FINALLY got this woman into a secluded spot, so hes going to do his thing.

[curious4]

Hello John

Polly Nichols, Kate Eddowes?

Best wishes,
C4

[Abby Normal]

Hi Lynn,

What about this. Let's assume that BS man and Marshall's man are the same person. Now, on the face of it, he doesn't seem particularly threatening, far from it. Marshall described him as well-dressed, well-spoken and educated. He appeared charming, and may even have bought Stride a flower. And, of course, in this scenario Stride would have been with him for at least an hour, during which time he doesn't attack her.

However, let us assume he's been trying to persuade Stride to come with him to a predetermined murder location but she refuses. They have an argument and Stride walks off to the gate. BS man doesn't follow immediately- he's weighing up his options, thinking he might be better off looking for another victim.

But he changes his mind. He makes one last attempt to persuade Stride to come with him and walks towards her. They have a brief discussion before he grabs her arm and pulls her toward the street by way of encouragement, and out of frustration. Unfortunately, Stride looses her balance and falls to the ground, a scene wrongly interpreted by Schwartz.

After seeing off Schwartz he noticed how dark Dutfield's Yard is and decides it's a plausible alternative murder location. He apologizes to Stride for the "accident" and by way of further apology he suggests they go to the club where he'll buy her a drink- perhaps he informs her he's a club member.

She agrees- after all, he's been pleasant for most of the evening and she accepts what happened was probably an accident and out of character for the man.

She takes out the cachous to help her relax after the incident witnessed by Schwartz, and also to freshen her breath prior to entering the club.

not bad. not bad at all.

[curious4]

Hello Abby,

Um, would she take her cachous out just before servicing a client? Afterwards maybe. I don't think the clientele in the area were interested in minty fresh breath.

Best wishes
C4