The Cachous

[John G]

Hi John,

Let's try it this way. The B.S. man and Liz are on the street when last seen by Schwartz. The B.S. man needs to get her into the yard in order to kill her and not be seen. Let's assume he does not drag her but she goes willingly. He says let's go back into the yard. She says what for and the B.S. man says ----.

What reason does he give her?

c.d.

Hello c.d.

As I've pointed out in other posts, if he suggests that the incident witnessed by Schwartz was an accident, and if BS man was the same as Marshall's man, he can get Stride into the Yard by offering to take her to the club for a drink, i.e by way of apology, and so she can enjoy the singing and music. There was a side door, which was used by both Lave and Eagle. He could therefore have told Stride that they needed to enter the Yard in order to access the club via the side door.

[curious4]

Hello Abby,

Thank you. The biggest weakness, of course is why Liz was standing in the gateway of the yard. Did she know the man who was pulling at her? Was she just very unlucky and was taken by JTR when her escort was not with her, gone to buy some food perhaps? If he came back later, she would not be in sight and he might think she had just gone home. Obviously he was not going to admit that he was with her most of the evening.

Or is there a scenario where there were two or three men involved in (to them) a kind of game. No 1 "woos" Liz, giving her a good time, being charming, flowers, cachous etc, gets her to the venue, No 2 is Pipeman, the lookout, and No 3 is the slightly drunk one who does the deed.

Or was it a domestic? Personally I think Kidney was more of a fist and kicks man than a throat-cutter, but I could be wrong.

Hello John,

Seems you either believe that there were slight mistakes in the translation or not. As someone who worked for many years with translations, I can say that mistakes are made, sometimes really grave ones, on a regular basis. As to the pulling and pushing I refer to my earlier post.

Best wishes,
C4

[John G]

Hello C4,

I think, as I said, you would have to virtually re-write Schwartz's account to fit with your scenario, which seems similar to Jon Guy's. Thus, Schwartz refers to BS man pulling Stride towards the street, I.e he had hold of her arm. In this context, spinning, or turning, her around and then throwing her to the ground makes sense. It doesn't make sense from the perspective of "forcing" her to the ground. If he intended to kill her in the Yard, why pull her towards the street. And killing her in the street, in front of witnesses, would be a crazy idea.

Moreover, the police account mentions her being thrown on to the footpath, which is clearly outside the Yard. Also, she ends up several feet inside the yard, so if he did push her it must have been with tremendous force: I doubt the cachous would have survived intact- as I've said before, I think she would have put her hand down to break the fall.

And, if pushed back with that degree of force, why no evidence of bruising, or damage to the skin or clothing of any kind? If she didn't break her fall, why is there no evidence of impact damage, I.e to her head and back? Moreover, it was pitch-black dark inside the Yard, so how could Schwartz be certain of what happened?

[curious4]

Hello John,

I believe there were bruises on her shoulders.

C4

[John G]

Hello John,

I believe there were bruises on her shoulders.

C4

Hello C4,

Foreman of the Jury: " Did you notice any marks or bruises about the shoulders?"

Dr Phillips: " They were what we call pressure marks. At first they were very obscure...they were not what are ordinarily called bruises; neither is there any abrasion."

Foreman of the Jury: "How recently might the marks have been caused?"

Dr Phillips: " That is rather difficult to say."

Another issue is that if Stride cried out in the Yard, I think Mrs D would've heard her, as she was most likely just a few feet away, in the kitchen with the window open.

[curious4]

Hello John

Isn't that splitting hairs a little?

C4

[John G]

Hello John

Isn't that splitting hairs a little?

C4

Hello C4,

No, I think it's highly relevant. Dr Phillips clearly thought that the faint marks were caused by the killer grabbing hold of her shoulders. If she was propelled backwards several feet into the Yard, and failed to break her fall, instead opting to hold onto the cachous, you would surely have expected significant injuries- she may have even been knocked unconscious! But, as Dr Phillips said, there were no abrasions of any kind.

[curious4]

Hello John

Oh dear, I obviously haven't been clear enough:

Tries to pull her into street

Grasps shoulder, turns her round possibly moving her further in

Twists scarf tight, she passes out

Grasping both shoulders lowers her (unconscious) to ground and positions her (she's unconscious, no struggle)

Cuts throat

Presume we have to agree to disagree.

C4

[John G]

Hello C4. Not sure if I've misunderstood, but as he tries to pull her into the street he's clearly moving her further away from the yard. How does she end up in the Yard? If he pushes her, after moving her towards the street, that's going to be a significant distance, so he must have pushed with some force. I don't see how she avoids significantly injuries. I think it highly likely she would have dropped the cachous. And, as I've noted, I'm sure Mrs D would have heard if she screamed in the yard

If he moves her towards the yard before pushing, why didn't she struggle or cry out whilst he's doing this? How does she end up with her feet facing the gate? If he pulls her towards the street, she's facing the street. If he turns her around, she's facing the Yard. So how does she end up facing the street?

[Errata]

Hello C4,

No, I think it's highly relevant. Dr Phillips clearly thought that the faint marks were caused by the killer grabbing hold of her shoulders. If she was propelled backwards several feet into the Yard, and failed to break her fall, instead opting to hold onto the cachous, you would surely have expected significant injuries- she may have even been knocked unconscious! But, as Dr Phillips said, there were no abrasions of any kind.

But that's impossible. Pressure marks are made by constant pressure over time. Like the marks bra straps make on the shoulders. He'd have to have his hands on her shoulders for like, and hour or more to leave any mark at all.

[John G]

Hi Errata,

Well, I think that demonstrates the marks were not caused by her killer unless, of course, she was murdered by her bra strap!

[harry]

I believe that too much attention is given to Dutfield Yard,as having some special meaning.My opinion is that Stride was the woman that was seen by Brown, who left the male she was with just after Brown left.She then goes into Berner street and had reached the gate entrance when BS approaches,followed by Schwartz.

[Wickerman]

Hello C4,

No, I think it's highly relevant. Dr Phillips clearly thought that the faint marks were caused by the killer grabbing hold of her shoulders. If she was propelled backwards several feet into the Yard, and failed to break her fall, instead opting to hold onto the cachous, you would surely have expected significant injuries- she may have even been knocked unconscious! But, as Dr Phillips said, there were no abrasions of any kind.

Bear in mind, Annie Chapman had similar bruising on the front of her chest.

[Errata]

Hi Errata,

Well, I think that demonstrates the marks were not caused by her killer unless, of course, she was murdered by her bra strap!

I've had some wily bra straps in my day, but in the end they know who's boss.

[Wickerman]

Hello c.d.

As I've pointed out in other posts, if he suggests that the incident witnessed by Schwartz was an accident, and if BS man was the same as Marshall's man, he can get Stride into the Yard by offering to take her to the club for a drink, i.e by way of apology, and so she can enjoy the singing and music. There was a side door, which was used by both Lave and Eagle. He could therefore have told Stride that they needed to enter the Yard in order to access the club via the side door.

I do agree that the Marshall suspect resembles BS-man, superficially at least, but the woman seen by Marshall at 11:45 pm may not have been Stride. Marshall doesn't say that he didn't see a flower, he says, "she did not have a flower on her breast".

Stride was already wearing the flower, a dahlia, at 11:00 pm, when at the Bricklayer's Arms.