The Cachous

[Jon Guy]

She was found several yards away from the footway not just a few feet. And, as you point out, the bruising that was present may have been old.

John, what is your source for where the body was found please ?

[Batman]

To be honest Batman, if I was told the victim had been assaulted and cast to the ground I would be looking for bruises & scrapes on the heels of her hands, elbows, knees, hips, etc. Likewise for mud at the same points of contact.

If I found none, I might be suspicious about the accuracy of that claim, or perhaps consider this was a different individual.

Bruises on the chest, or front of shoulders, does not indicate contact with the ground.

No the bruising doesn't indicate contact with the ground, it indicates a frontal assault. Neither pathologist nor witness where aware of each other on this point. That's strong corroboration.

The hypothesis all dragging instantly produces torn clothes has to be supported with some evidence because its a positive claim. I see none for it until it can be produced.

[Batman]

She would have had plenty of time to cry out before her assailant grabbed the scarf.

I bet you quickly drop this line of reasoning when it comes to your alternative killer hypothesis because Ninjaman is able to do this but not BSman for some unknown reasoning.

Also as Schwartz stated, she cried out, but not very loudly. That's consistent with the beginning of a voice box compression. Did Schwartz just guess this also? No, its corroboration of the facts. She didn't cry out loudly. Body found with neckerchief tight around neck.

[Abby Normal]

I bet you quickly drop this line of reasoning when it comes to your alternative killer hypothesis because Ninjaman is able to do this but not BSman for some unknown reasoning.

Also as Schwartz stated, she cried out, but not very loudly. That's consistent with the beginning of a voice box compression. Did Schwartz just guess this also? No, its corroboration of the facts. She didn't cry out loudly. Body found with neckerchief tight around neck.

Not only that, but it may have also suppressed the flow/spray of blood.

[Abby Normal]

Its often been stated that BS mans attack on Stride was not that big of a deal. Its a domestic and/or whitechapel prostitutes must have been used to this sort of thing-happened all the time.

OK-fine.

But, if this is the case, then surely its no big deal for Stride to have then gone with him voluntarily into the yard-taking the caschous out then. Correct?


And one last question for the Cashoo Crowd: So Its feasible that she could hold on to them through being choked with her scarf, her throat being cut and going to the ground, dying, but not feasible for her to hold onto them through such a minor tussle (according to many)???

Good luck with that one.

[John G]

I bet you quickly drop this line of reasoning when it comes to your alternative killer hypothesis because Ninjaman is able to do this but not BSman for some unknown reasoning.

Also as Schwartz stated, she cried out, but not very loudly. That's consistent with the beginning of a voice box compression. Did Schwartz just guess this also? No, its corroboration of the facts. She didn't cry out loudly. Body found with neckerchief tight around neck.

As I've said before, I think her killer must have launched a surprise attack from behind. Where does Schwartz mention Stride being strangled? If she was dragged, why no drag marks? Why no bruising or grazong to the back or legs?

[John G]

John, what is your source for where the body was found please ?

Hi Jon,

There is a contemporary sketch which suggests her body was a significant distance inside the yard. In any event, the photograph depicts the gate as being set back from the street and footpath. I would have had thought that she would have to move a couple of yards from the footpath merely to fully clear the gateway entrance.

[John G]

Its often been stated that BS mans attack on Stride was not that big of a deal. Its a domestic and/or whitechapel prostitutes must have been used to this sort of thing-happened all the time.

OK-fine.

But, if this is the case, then surely its no big deal for Stride to have then gone with him voluntarily into the yard-taking the caschous out then. Correct?


And one last question for the Cashoo Crowd: So Its feasible that she could hold on to them through being choked with her scarf, her throat being cut and going to the ground, dying, but not feasible for her to hold onto them through such a minor tussle (according to many)???

Good luck with that one.

Hi Abby,

That's why I think she must have been attacked from behind. In such circumstances she would have no need to break a fall. I also think Schwartz may have witnessed an altercation involving a different couple, I.e the one seen by Brown, Mortimer or even Marshall. This would explain why Schwartz didn't mention the flower or, for that matter, the cachous. It is would also expect explain the brief conversation prior to the attempt to pull the woman into the street, I.e if it was a domestic dispute.

As I've noted before, if the intention was a blitz attack, why the need for any conversation? If the intent was to lure Stride away, to a more suitable murder location, why change tactic after such a brief attempt?

[Jon Guy]

There is a contemporary sketch which suggests her body was a significant distance inside the yard. In any event, the photograph depicts the gate as being set back from the street and footpath. I would have had thought that she would have to move a couple of yards from the footpath merely to fully clear the gateway entrance.

Hi John

The exact details are in the inquest testimony !!

Morris Eagle: "The gateway is 9 ft. 2 in. wide"

PC Lamb: "The feet of the deceased extended just to the swing of the gate"

Therefore, her feet were just over 4 and half feet from the gateway. (or one good push and two strides away from where she was standing)

[Batman]

As I've said before, I think her killer must have launched a surprise attack from behind. Where does Schwartz mention Stride being strangled? If she was dragged, why no drag marks? Why no bruising or grazong to the back or legs?

Why no verification of this positive claim that in any homicide a person dragged a short distance must show all those things?

Again to say this must be the case, you must show evidence for that otherwise you have to accept it doesn't have to be the case and therefore isn't a valid objection.

The crime scene was disturbed by people going in and out and moving the body so footprint evidence is contaminated.

[Batman]

Hi John

The exact details are in the inquest testimony !!

Morris Eagle: "The gateway is 9 ft. 2 in. wide"

PC Lamb: "The feet of the deceased extended just to the swing of the gate"

Therefore, her feet were just over 4 and half feet from the gateway. (or one good push and two strides away from where she was standing)

1.5 yards. Not even a couple of yards, nor a few yards and definitely not 'several' yards.

As John Guy says, its a push away.

[John G]

Why no verification of this positive claim that in any homicide a person dragged a short distance must show all those things?

Again to say this must be the case, you must show evidence for that otherwise you have to accept it doesn't have to be the case and therefore isn't a valid objection.

The crime scene was disturbed by people going in and out and moving the body so footprint evidence is contaminated.

I think it would be probable. That's the central difficulty for me in accepting that Schwartz witnessed a prelude to a murder: it means accepting too many unlikely scenarios.

[John G]

Hi John

The exact details are in the inquest testimony !!

Morris Eagle: "The gateway is 9 ft. 2 in. wide"

PC Lamb: "The feet of the deceased extended just to the swing of the gate"

Therefore, her feet were just over 4 and half feet from the gateway. (or one good push and two strides away from where she was standing)

Thanks for this Jon. But if we say that the footpath was about 3 feet or more from the gateway, we're still talking about a total distance of two and a half yards. Moreover, the police report doesn't mention she was pushed, but thrown down on to the footpath.

[John G]

Okay, here's an alternative scenario to consider. Let us assume, provisionally, that Stride was pushed through the gates. BS man then turns towards Schwartz, shouting Lipski in order to see him off. Schwartz quickly departs, however, BS man decides he's made a big mistake in attacking Stride in front of Schwartz, moreover, he also notices the presence of Pipeman for the first time. Initially, therefore, he decides to leave the scene as murdering Stride would be too risky.

Meanwhile, Stride assumes that BS man has gone and she therefore takes out a cachous to help her recover from the shock (she doesn't immediately get up, as she wants to have a minute first, whilst she recovers and regains her composure.) Unfortunately, BS man changes his mind; he returns and quickly slits Stride's throat. Oh, wait a minute...that actually makes sense!

I do, however, see difficulties with this scenario. Firstly, the police report doesn't mention Stride being pushed. Secondly, when she saw BS man return, wouldn't she immediately let out a scream, and wouldn't this be heard by Mrs D, who was probably sat a few feet away in the kitchen with the window open? Thirdly, as Stride witnesses BS man's return, wouldn't she try and stand up? Wouldn't you expect to see signs of a struggle? Fouthly, if she was pushed backwards, wouldn't you expect to see impact injuries? Wouldn't her wrist be injured as she tried to break the fall? If she didn't try and break the fall, wouldn't she have sustained significant back/head injuries?

[DJA]

Stride's dead face was described as placid in the Coroner's Court.

There was no evidence of a struggle.

The shoulders had pressure marks,not bruises.

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