Liz's breath?!

[SarahLee]

Unfortunately, not being in the know about all of this, I cannot tell if the mild sweetmeats would produce the nerve-tickling sensation that Sarah Lee ascribes to breath mints, but something tells me that the more powerful the tablet, the more ...
Yes? Correct?

This brings a whole new dimension to the tablets named "Fishermans friend", mind you ...

The best,
Fisherman

I'm afraid that I have to protest my innocence in any of this talk of nerve-tickling so far in this thread . . . It wasn't me
But I wish you hadn't mentioned Fisherman's Friends. My grandparents always used to keep a bowl of them on the sideboard and I now have images in my mind that I really wish weren't there

The reason that she had cachous really can't be anything other than pure speculation on our part. Maybe she wanted to freshen her breath; maybe she believed in them as an aid to oral sex . . . or maybe it was just as simple as she liked the taste of them ?????

What's interesting is that she still had them in her hand when she was found, which would seem to imply the following :

a) She entered the yard willingly with her killer.
I can't believe that she'd been walking around clutching the cachous in her hand all night, so on entering the yard (or shortly before) she either reached into her pocket and took them out or she was handed them as a gift by her killer. Neither of these would seem the action of a woman being taken somewhere under duress.

and

b) She was taken by surprise and killed rapidly - without the opportunity to open her hands to break her fall to the ground or to defend herself against her attacker.

Of course, the other option is that she tried to put up a fight, grabbed at her killer's clothing in defense and managed to snag a packet of cachous from on his person . . . finally falling to the ground with this last piece of evidence grasped in her dying hand.
That all seems a bit too dramatic to ring true to me though.

[Casebook Wiki Editor]

Unfortunately, not being in the know about all of this, I cannot tell if the mild sweetmeats would produce the nerve-tickling sensation that Sarah Lee ascribes to breath mints, but something tells me that the more powerful the tablet, the more ...
Yes? Correct?

Clearly research is needed, and needed urgently. Primary sources must be consulted immediately.

[lynn cates]

cachous

Hello Fish and SRA. I think I posted this site some time ago but here it is again.

Perhaps this will help with the flavour and size of the cachous. Incidentally, there is no tingling with these, but there is a disgusting taste. Very effective, though.

Cheers.
LC

http://www.quitcoughing.com/brands/sen-sen

[praline]

Thanks for the chuckle Fisherman

I think this whole debate started when someone was explaining that the presence of these breath mints proved it was a romantic date rather then a job.

Then it was mentioned that there was no way or reason a woman would use a breath mint before oral sex

I had to add in my 2 cents on why it could be possible

I hope I didn't offend anyone

[Fisherman]

Sarah Lee:

"I'm afraid that I have to protest my innocence in any of this talk of nerve-tickling so far in this thread . . . It wasn't me "

No it wasn´t, I realize that now - sorry!

"I wish you hadn't mentioned Fisherman's Friends. My grandparents always used to keep a bowl of them on the sideboard and I now have images in my mind that I really wish weren't there "

...and sorry about that too!

"The reason that she had cachous really can't be anything other than pure speculation on our part. Maybe she wanted to freshen her breath; maybe she believed in them as an aid to oral sex . . . or maybe it was just as simple as she liked the taste of them ?????"

Considering the information telling us that the cachous in Stride´s hand were sweetmeats, I would much favour the last option. If she had bought them herself or had been given them - perhaps by somebody who also supplied the flower - is another question. If she was treated to both flower and cachous by the same person - and I think this is a very sound proposition - then arguably these gifts were meant for Strides personal benefit, and not for providing punters with any mint-enhanced nerve sensations ...

"What's interesting is that she still had them in her hand when she was found, which would seem to imply the following :
a) She entered the yard willingly with her killer.
I can't believe that she'd been walking around clutching the cachous in her hand all night, so on entering the yard (or shortly before) she either reached into her pocket and took them out or she was handed them as a gift by her killer. Neither of these would seem the action of a woman being taken somewhere under duress.
and
b) She was taken by surprise and killed rapidly - without the opportunity to open her hands to break her fall to the ground or to defend herself against her attacker."

I could not have phrased it any better if I wanted to - this is the exact take I have on it too.

The best,
Fisherman

[Fisherman]

Praline:

"I hope I didn't offend anyone"

Can´t speak for the others out here - but I was VERY amused myself!

The best,
Fisherman

[praline]

Can´t speak for the others out here - but I was VERY amused myself!

The best,
Fisherman

GOOD! I will admit in my idea not being the most likely of scenarios but hey it could happen!

I think many many ideas would work and due to the wide range of them its really impossible to speculate on why she had them in her hand.


There is just so much about Elizabeth's death that was "odd" I am not even convinced it was a JTR murder but then again I am not convinced at all it wasn't =/
So sad when we can't even be sure what the motive was let alone a suspect <sigh>

[Carol]

Praline:

"I hope I didn't offend anyone"

Can´t speak for the others out here - but I was VERY amused myself!

The best,
Fisherman

Hi Praline!

I agree with Fisherman. I thought your post was hilarious! (And in my case I learned something new!).

Love
Carol

[GregBaron]

Volunteers?

You're a funny fellow Sir Robert Anderson and obviously an original thinker. We need more researchers like you....



Greg

[Fleetwood Mac]

Not sure if anyone has mentioned this, but my best guess is this:

She wasn't using them to stimulate a client or please a client with her breath; she was using them to mask, in as far as possible, the odour/taste from the client, which presumably would have been foul.

If so, could mean that she was on her knees and just about to put the sweets in her mouth when he attacked her - not much of a stretch. Could explain in a couple of the murders how he manged to get them to lie down; they were already on their knees and he rolled them over after strangulation.

Edited to add: can anyone envisage a realistic scenario in which he cut their throats while the victims were on their knees?

[praline]

If I remember right, the angle of the wounds suggested the attacker grabbed them while they were standing from behind?

If this is the case, I don't believe she would have been on her knees. This doesn't mean she couldn't have been bent over with her hands on the fence in a position to expect something OTHER then an attack. Goodness I am going to start sounding like a dirty old lady

The more I think about this and play it out in my head ~ different ways this attack could have started/happened... I do think these mints are extremely important. Sadly we will never know why she had them in her hand BUT if we knew a better time of death ~ where she got the mints (vendor maybe or date)
it would establish what led up to the crime and if it were indeed a JTR case rather then a domestic dispute of sorts. So even though I think they are extremely important in her case ~ there is absolutely nothing we can do with them FRUSTRATING!

[curious4]

I can see I shall have to change to Funf Krauter now. You know, the ones with the monk on the front.....

[lynn cates]

aha!

Hello praline.

"The more I think about this and play it out in my head ~ different ways this attack could have started/happened... I do think these mints are extremely important."

Now you're talking! Keep playing out the events--do a forensic reconstruction. I predict that the results will be MOST revealing.

Cheers.
LC

[c.d.]

I have a lot of problems with the whole domestic scenario. For starters, if Liz is approached by Kidney or another lover/boyfriend, I don't see the need for the conversation to move from the street into the yard. If he is calm and rational at the beginning, why is there a need for privacy? It is not like they were in a busy place with people all about. On the other hand, if he is visibly angry (especially if it is Kidney with his history of domestic abuse), why go off to a secluded spot? Can anything really good come from that? More likely another beating would be the result. If I were Liz, I would want to stay as close to the club door as possible, and make it known to her lover/boyfriend that she is happy to discuss the situation on the street but she will scream her head off to attract the attention of the club members if the situation becomes violent.

c.d.

[lynn cates]

in the yard

Hello CD. I agree with you that the proffered domestic reasons for Liz's being in the yard are faulty. And I would stick my neck out and say ALL the reasons I have seen for her being in the yard are faulty.

Figure out her motive, and make it consistent with the other slender facts, and I think it will be case closed.

Cheers.
LC