Liz's breath?!

[c.d.]

Hi Lynn,

Well I would go with the approach that doctors take. That is, if it looks like a duck and walks like a duck and quacks like a duck it's probably a duck. In other words, if you have all the classic symptoms of a kidney infection, it is more likely than not that you actually have a kidney infection. In Liz's case, we have a known prostitute standing by herself late at night next to a club where there is a lot of men. Now no matter how the evening started this is how it ended up. So I would say there is a very strong likelihood that she was engaged in prostitution. And even if she was not, it is not unlikely that she was mistaken for a prostitute and approached as such by her killer.

c.d.

[lynn cates]

scenario

Hello CD. Perhaps Liz entered the yard and headed towards the side door. there she could cry out, "'Ere Ducky! Wanna spend 4d? No? Be that way, see if I care. Hmmph!" She heads out of the yard. Perhaps a chap popped out the back door, gave chase whilst she stopped for her obligatory cachous break and then it all broke loose.

The doctors? Better have a look at their testimony again. Nothing about prostitution. Sorry.

Cheers.
LC

[c.d.]

Hi Lynn,

I was referring to the way that doctors approach a diagnosis in general. I was not referring to the doctors testimony in this case. Now if we go with the duck approach, the most probable scenario is that she was killed by a client. Now I know that you want every i dotted and every t crossed and while that is an admirable approach it simply ain't gonna happen.

c.d.

[Phil H]

...the most probable scenario is that she was killed by a client.

I don't think that is the "most probable" at all. It is long established.

I think there is enough evidence at least to postulate that Liz stride was not soliciting that night - she had been on a date. It was not her usual area, nor was Berner's St apparently known as a haunt for prostitutes. None of those who claimed to have seen her that night reported her as soliciting - she had a corsage and cashous. There are other explanations that that she was outside the IWMC seeking clients.

Now, if your "duck approach" is to assume that anyone who has ever solicited must by definition being doing so every time they go out - I have to disagree with your reasoning.

Phil

[c.d.]

Hi Phil,

I said probable with the key word being...well, probable. If you have the classic symptoms of a kidney infection, doctors are going to treat you accordingly. Now that does not mean it could not be something else. Liz was not killed at noontime as she exited from church. She was a known prostitute seen standing by herself late at night next to a club full of men. The duck approach leads to the conclusion that she was PROBABLY soliciting. But no, we cannot treat that as an established fact only as the most likely scenario.

c.d.

[caz]

What is so hard about accepting that any man seeing Stride there alone, be he a respectable club member, average Saturday night punter or serial prostitute killer, would almost undoubtedly have presumed she was available for a little business - even if she had given up all that and was waiting for a respectable beau to whisk her off in time for Sunday prayers?

I wonder if the cachous were handed over to her in lieu of cash, as a sweetener (ha ha) and a handy distraction, so that as she peered at the gift in the darkness to assess its worth he got his knife out and that was that. It might explain why she was still clutching the packet.

In fact, any of the items found on the victims could have been cheap gifts or trinkets from their killer to keep them sweet and distracted, considering that no money was found on them. If they'd had the business earlier in the evening and made their doss money (and kept it!) they would not have been around when their killer was. He had it easy if they were reduced to taking whatever was on offer.

Love,

Caz
X

[c.d.]

"What is so hard about accepting that any man seeing Stride there alone, be he a respectable club member, average Saturday night punter or serial prostitute killer, would almost undoubtedly have presumed she was available for a little business - even if she had given up all that and was waiting for a respectable beau to whisk her off in time for Sunday prayers?"

That would certainly seem to be a reasonable assumption on the part of a would be client be he a serial killer or otherwise.

c.d.

[lynn cates]

get thee behind me

Hello CD.

"Now I know that you want every i dotted and every t crossed and while that is an admirable approach it simply ain't gonna happen."

O ye of little faith!

Cheers.
LC

[c.d.]

Hello CD.

"Now I know that you want every i dotted and every t crossed and while that is an admirable approach it simply ain't gonna happen."

O ye of little faith!

Cheers.
LC

Well good luck with that, Lynn. I would respectfully suggest that you not hold your breath while engaged in that pursuit.

c.d.

[curious4]

Lizīs date

Are we right in assuming that the man who was with Liz, showering her her with cachous (and possibly cashews) and flowers was her murderer?

Schwarz states that he "noticed in front of him a man walking as if partially intoxicated....... presently he noticed a woman standing in the entrance to the alleyway where the body was found. The half-tipsy man halted and spoke to her.......saw him put his hand on her shoulder and push her back into the passage.." The Star 1 October 1888.

In other words she was alone when approached by (presumably) her killer. Unlikely that she was waiting to pick up a customer - she had enough money to pay for a bed when she left her lodgings.

Did her "date" say something like "Wait here mīdear, while I nip off and get my knife." or was her killer someone else? And why was she waiting there? Was she "set up" by her "date", ready for Jack with his shiny knife?

A few thoughts, from
C4

[Phil H]

curious

Did her "date" say something like "Wait here mīdear, while I nip off and get my knife." or was her killer someone else? And why was she waiting there? Was she "set up" by her "date", ready for Jack with his shiny knife?

There are a number of options:

a) they had just parted at the end of the evening and she was preparing to go home - not standing around at all;

b) that he was a member of the IWMC and popped into see someone or do something - asking her to wait outside;

c) that he did not leave her, but when her assailant came up, rather ungallantly stood aside and avoided involvement - perhaps because he was a married man and would have been compromised.

There may be more options - those will do. I do not assert them, nor do I have a theory based upon them they are possibilities, no more.

Are we right in assuming that the man who was with Liz... was her murderer?

No, I do not believe we are. If Schwartz is to be believed, her "beau" might have been pipe-smoking man - watching (appalled) but unwilling/unable to intervene.

Phil

[curious4]

Hi Lynn,

Well I would go with the approach that doctors take. That is, if it looks like a duck and walks like a duck and quacks like a duck it's probably a duck. In other words, if you have all the classic symptoms of a kidney infection, it is more likely than not that you actually have a kidney infection. In Liz's case, we have a known prostitute standing by herself late at night next to a club where there is a lot of men. Now no matter how the evening started this is how it ended up. So I would say there is a very strong likelihood that she was engaged in prostitution. And even if she was not, it is not unlikely that she was mistaken for a prostitute and approached as such by her killer.

c.d.

Canīt agree with you that Liz was a "known prostitute". She seemed to have had many ways in which she raised money, including cleaning and money from the Swedish Church. And she could spin a good line. She did get paralytic from time to time, but tell me, was she a prostitute or just a girl who was out for a good time?

C4

[curious4]

Hello Phil,

Think you may have nailed it with your last suggestion but why would her date be afraid to intervene - Jack didnīt exactly advertise his knife before it was necessary, so he had no need to hold back, more likely to rush over exclaiming "Oi, what you doing to my girl!"

Best wishes,
C4

P.S. Pipe-man didnīt just stand and watch, though, did he? It appeared that he actively chased off a prospective witness - unless he was running away - although it seems as though the killer called out "Lipski" meaning Schwartz to him, which indicates that they knew each other.

[lynn cates]

breathing

Hello CD.

"I would respectfully suggest that you not hold your breath while engaged in that pursuit."

Thanks. You know me. The only time I hold my breath is when I wish to avoid the smell of bovine faecal material which frequently emanates from the traditional cover stories for Liz, Kate and MJ.

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

set up

Hello C4.

"Was she "set up" by her "date"[?]"

I consider that altogether plausible.

Cheers.
LC