Liz's breath?!

[lynn cates]

pipe man

Hello Phil.

"If Schwartz is to be believed, her "beau" might have been pipe-smoking man - watching (appalled) but unwilling/unable to intervene."

But why is he standing by the pub? And is it not an odd time to light a pipe, as your lady friend is being assaulted? (Of course, if they were married, he might well uncork the bubbly--heh-heh.)

Cheers.
LC

[Phil H]

Lets say her date was a Jewish man (Stride was supposed to speak a little Yiddish and work in Jewish homes as a char, wasn't she?).

He is married and a practicising Jew. were it known that he was consorting with a woman of ill-repute/an unfortunate, he would suffer in his own community. So he distances himself from trouble.

If he was in the Club when the murder took place and came out to find Liz dead, he may just have walked away.

If he was nearby when she was attacked, he may have looked on in an agony of indecision - but walked away.

He would NOT have gone forward to the police voluntarily; he would have sought to avoid being interviewed by the police, being summoned to an inquest and shunned any publicity. Any of these could have blighted his life.

BUT - if somehow the police ddi come across this man, could HE have been Anderson's witness? Confidentiality guaranteed - so never mentioned in the files?

That was just a thought that struck me as I wrote. I do not propose it as a theory or even the germ of an idea. It is wholly conjectural and no one should build any suppositions on its foundation, in my view - but there you go!

Phil

[curious4]

Liz

Cheers, Lynn!

C4

[curious4]

Hello Phil,
We-ell, if he went into the club, he was running the risk of being seen by friends and aquaintances - people were coming and going all the time. Also I seem to remember that the club was not well-looked upon by orthodox jews. I have never believed Andersonīs claim (fellow jew etc. etc) - he does come across as a dyed-in-the-wool anti-semite. I think Schwartz may have been the receiver of the threatening letter (I know where you live and so on) and, having little confidence in the ability of the police to protect him, decided not to witness and Anderson wanted to come up with a reason for this.

And - in that case - who was pipeman and how does he fit in?

Best wishes,
C4

[Phil H]

But why is he standing by the pub? And is it not an odd time to light a pipe, as your lady friend is being assaulted?

I don't know and am sceptical of how Schwartz interpreted what he was seeing (if he saw anything!).

Two possibilities occur to me (assuming PSM was Liz's date):

a) he had started to walk away and looked back when he heard the sounds of the assault;

b) he retreated there afraid (if a "clerk" he might have ben afraid of a tough working man like BSM or Kidney) as soon as the other man approached, to see what would happen.

But it is possible he was not the date and had nothing to do with Liz or BSM.

Further - we see comparatively few pipe-smokers these days, but as I recall, fiddling with your pipe, matches, cleaners and pouch was something of a nervous habit. Lighting a pipe might show itself by flashes of illumination on the man;s face, but in a glance could you accurately do more than say a man had a pipe in his mouth? Which I believe you have to do to light it.

Phil

[lynn cates]

Hello Phil.

"If he was in the Club when the murder took place and came out to find Liz dead, he may just have walked away."

OK. But if the traditional story is true, he must have been in there some great time. For Smith seems not to have seen him at 12:35--unless he was the parcel man. And it seems that Wess and Eagle missed him at 12:40. Schwartz missed him at 12:45 (assuming that story true); and, if Diemshitz were on the up and up about time, then the "beau" came out AFTER 1:00. All I can offer is that he sang Tum Balalaika with his Russian pals with much gusto.

"If he was nearby when she was attacked, he may have looked on in an agony of indecision - but walked away."

Well, if Schwartz is to be believed, he didn't just stand but walked after Schwartz. I am curious about his lingering and taking a smoke whilst Liz stood at the gates.

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

nervous habits

Hello Phil. Yes, fiddling with a pipe might be a nervous habit. But if it were a knife, as in Schwartz story #2, that would be a habit to make OTHERS nervous--heh-heh.

Cheers.
LC

[curious4]

Pipeman or knifeman?

Just a point.

In his interview with the Star, 1 oct 1888, Schwartz makes no mention of a pipe. The reporter had the foresight to bring an interpreter with him - perhaps the police did not have access to one at the time and, as Schwartz english was bad, mistook the word "knife" for "pipe" - things do get distorted under these circumstances.

Or did "pipeman" run after Schwartz with his pipe in one hand and a knife in the other? Schwartz was convinced that his pursuer did have a knife in his hand.

All the best
C4

[lynn cates]

accomplice

Hello C4. If the Schwartz story were true and PM had a knife, the most obvious implication would be that he was BS man's accomplice. But then, it looks like Liz is caught in a pincer's movement between BS to the north and PM to the south.

That does not sit comfortably.

Cheers.
LC

[Phil H]

Re the knife - the point I was asked about was the pipe and pipe man.

I am not asking anyone here to accept anything of what I have said, I am simply presenting some alternatives to those well-tried theories of which we are all aware. You take or leave them as you will.

[...if the traditional story is true, he must have been in there some great time. For Smith seems not to have seen him at 12:35--unless he was the parcel man. And it seems that Wess and Eagle missed him at 12:40. Schwartz missed him at 12:45 (assuming that story true); and, if Diemshitz were on the up and up about time, then the "beau" came out AFTER 1:00.

How accurate are such timings? Even today I would question someone who told me something happened so precisely - unless it related to a timed e-mail.
In 1888, I doubt anyone including the police could have been more accurate than to the nearest quarter hour (which tended to be when clocks chimed). I gre wup in a cathedral city and lived near the cathedral where the graet bell chimed the quarters from 7.00am, to about 10.30/10.45pm - I forget which. I knew the time to the nearest quarter almost by instinct - you didn't have to listen for it. It must have been similar for Victorians who had more public clocks than today - but depended on how accurate each clock was.

I see no reason why the "beau" could not have been inside for 10-15 minutes with Liz uinconcerned. There is only a maximum of 25 minutes in the supposition bolded above. I have waited in the street for friends to do business before now for that long without concern.

...if he went into the club, he was running the risk of being seen by friends and aquaintances - people were coming and going all the time.
As Stride was outside and not obviously with him, then why would he be concerned?

Also I seem to remember that the club was not well-looked upon by orthodox jews.

We don't know whether there was a "beau" let alone that he was "othodox"! I simply suggested he might have been practicing as ONE POSSIBILITY why he might have ben sensitive to an association with Liz. As I allways say building supposition on supposition is unwise.

On knife v pipe - I seem to recall (perhaps on the "old" boards) a suggestion that Schwartz's Hungarian might have been mistranslated or misheard - that the words for "knife" and "pipe" in that language were similar. But I could be mistaken in whole or detail.

Phil

[lynn cates]

knife vs pipe

Hello Phil. Yes, I think I recall the knife vs pipe controversy. That's a good explanation. Another is a kind of evolution into a knife to avoid charges of cowardice.

I cut the Gordian knot by declaring the whole story rubbish--done to protect the IWMEC members who felt threatened by the implications of a dead body in the yard.

Cheers.
LC

[Phil H]

I might be wary of accepting Schwartz's testimony, but I would not want to assert a reason for that.

I doubt that the IWMC knew anything about the killing on their doorstep, or that a member was involved. Members/the committee may have wanted to distance themselves - may even have concealed what they knew, but we have nothing to base that on.

The infamous registers might shed light on this and I am entirely ready to change my view - given evidence.

Phil

[c.d.]

Hello CD.

"I would respectfully suggest that you not hold your breath while engaged in that pursuit."

Thanks. You know me. The only time I hold my breath is when I wish to avoid the smell of bovine faecal material which frequently emanates from the traditional cover stories for Liz, Kate and MJ.

Cheers.
LC

Hello Lynn,

I see that you have now added Kate to the list. You really are a glutton for punishment aren't you? I am sure that it won't be long before you have the entire C5 in your sights. You might want to pick up the pace seeing as how the world will be ending on the 21st. Good luck!

c.d.

[Abby Normal]

Are we right in assuming that the man who was with Liz, showering her her with cachous (and possibly cashews) and flowers was her murderer?

Schwarz states that he "noticed in front of him a man walking as if partially intoxicated....... presently he noticed a woman standing in the entrance to the alleyway where the body was found. The half-tipsy man halted and spoke to her.......saw him put his hand on her shoulder and push her back into the passage.." The Star 1 October 1888.

In other words she was alone when approached by (presumably) her killer. Unlikely that she was waiting to pick up a customer - she had enough money to pay for a bed when she left her lodgings.

Did her "date" say something like "Wait here mīdear, while I nip off and get my knife." or was her killer someone else? And why was she waiting there? Was she "set up" by her "date", ready for Jack with his shiny knife?

A few thoughts, from
C4

Hi C4
I think Schwartz was accurate and truthful about what he saw about Liz and BS-man. I think he may have come upon them when BS-man, after spending considerable time (see numerous witness statements of seeing the two) and perhaps money (caschous and flower) and not being able to finagle her into a dark alley had got fed up and left, only to lose his temper and return to Liz and assault her.

I think pipeman (or later knife man as he told the press) was possibly made up by Schwartz to help explain away his less than brave actions.

And yes BS man was probably Liz's murderer and JtR IMHO.

[c.d.]

Canīt agree with you that Liz was a "known prostitute". She seemed to have had many ways in which she raised money, including cleaning and money from the Swedish Church. And she could spin a good line. She did get paralytic from time to time, but tell me, was she a prostitute or just a girl who was out for a good time?

C4

Hi Curious,

Liz was a registered prostitute in Sweden before she came to London. We have testimony from different witnesses that stated that she engaged in prostitution from time to time so I think it is a pretty safe bet to say that she was a known prostitute.

c.d.