Was Liz Stride a Ripper Victim?

[Patrick Differ]

Sorry. I meant shouting at Israel Shwartz.

[jerryd]

What if the man who shouted Lipski was shouting it at Israel Lipski, who may have known this man somehow, and then refused to identify him later?

Hi Patrick.

Maybe you mean shouting it at Phillip Lipski? I have had ideas about that also, btw. Israel Lobulsk (Lipski) was hanged in August of 1887. Or am I misunderstanding what you mean?

[Patrick Differ]

According to Ancestry 1901 census
LIving at 21 Jubilee Street very close to the Stride Murder
Israel Shwartz. Born in Russian Empire 1865
Esther wife born in Russia
Esther daughter born in Russia age 16 ( 1885)
Louis son born in London age 12 ( 1889)
3 more sons Daniel, Edward Abraham born in London.

So it appears that Shwartz, his wife and daughter left Russia after 1885 and were in the East End in 1889. It appears they stayed in the area.

This Israel Shwartz matches the story. It is likely he would have been in the area during the Israel Lipski murder event and would only know Yiddish and basic English words.

What if the man who shouted Lipski was shouting it at Israel Lipski, who may have known this man somehow, and then refused to identify him later?

[The Baron]

I'm waiting to one day find evidence that Israel Schwartz actually existed on record other than a man calling himself that providing a statement to Abberline.

Nathan Shine may be the man you're searching for.



The Baron

[erobitha]

I'm waiting to one day find evidence that Israel Schwartz actually existed on record other than a man calling himself that providing a statement to Abberline.

Until then, I personally disregard his testimony.

[Trevor Marriott]

The police were aware of Kidney and his relationship with Stride. If they never suspected him then they were complete and total idiots and incredibly incompetent. Since I don't think that was the case I have to believe they asked him for an alibi which he provided and which was checked. If he had no alibi, they would have asked Schwartz to identify him as the B.S. man. Since there is no report of that taking place I conclude he had an alibi.

c.d.

If Stride was prostituting herself outside the club she might have approached many men passing by, It is possible that one of the men simply pushed her away and heated words were exchanged.

My own belief is that she was not a victim of JTR. It has been shown that Kidney lied at the inquest and I am surprised he having lied he was not asked by the coroner to account for his movements on the night she was murdered. He may well have given an alibi to the police which was uncheckable

https://www.trevormarriott.co.uk

[New Waterloo]

I think c.d. is correct in that its reasonable to assume that the police must have asked Kidney for an alibi. But does Kidney come across to others as a drunken idiot not worthy of consideration. Have the police made a mistake in assuming that the so called serial killer JTR has killed Stride and disregarded Kidney as a viable offender. The inquest summing up tends to squash any ideas that it is somebody else who could have killed Stride but Kidney clearly lies at the inquest when another witness says that Stride had recently departed from Kidney after having had 'words' or something similar indicating a row and he seems to be agitated about her taking some items. I am not saying Kidney is responsible but there are some factors here that make him stand out a bit more than others. Also what's all the shouting about by Kidney at the police station on the evening of 1st Oct saying he can catch the ripper. Sounds to me like someone trying to distract the police's attention in the direction of JTR. Very odd I think.

NW

[c.d.]

The police were aware of Kidney and his relationship with Stride. If they never suspected him then they were complete and total idiots and incredibly incompetent. Since I don't think that was the case I have to believe they asked him for an alibi which he provided and which was checked. If he had no alibi, they would have asked Schwartz to identify him as the B.S. man. Since there is no report of that taking place I conclude he had an alibi.

c.d.

[New Waterloo]

Hello chubbs. I think you are correct in highlighting what the Coroner says in his summing up and it does seem that everything points to JTR killing Stride because basically why would any one else. I do think raised a very important point and observation However what the coroner says is interesting in that he uses the apparent fact that she was never threatened of feared anybody to strengthen the idea that it was JTR.

For some reason he seems to rule out the fact that Kidney had threatened and assaulted her in the past and they had a recent fall out. The man drank heavily and there is some evidence/suggestion that he was violent.

Perhaps what you have solidified with this case which is very positive is that it likely was JTR as suggested by the coroner so all we have to do now is fully rule out Kidney which will be difficult but perhaps not impossible if we have a closer look at him.

I do appreciate the idea of seeing what the coroner says because he has seen and spoken to the witnesses so his view of things should be seen as reliable.

I am going to have a read to see what others and Kidney say about Strides relationship just to satisfy myself

Thanks chubbs

NW

[chubbs]

The sort of trust that one might find with either...

A romantic couple
2 soldiers
Father and Son
2 Brothers
Twins


If the Ripper was more than 1 person, then their degree of relationship is likely to have been from 1 (or more) of the above.

By Jove, I think you've got it!

The Ripper was in fact a pair of unidentical male twins, one 5ft 3.5 inches tall, the other about 5ft 8inches. They were romantically involved (a fact they had hidden throughout their time as soldiers). The trigger for their killing spree was the moment they were told that they were in fact father & son, as the result of a liaison with five Whitechapel prostitutes, at least one of whom had syphilis.

So Liz Stride WAS a Ripper victim - but which of those two Rippers was it? Ripper Bill or Ripper Ben?

[The Rookie Detective]

I see what you're saying; kind of a "Hillside Strangler" situation. They would have to very sure of one another. The trust would have to be absolute. Especially in light of the most extensive manhunt in English history at the time.

The sort of trust that one might find with either...

A romantic couple
2 soldiers
Father and Son
2 Brothers
Twins


If the Ripper was more than 1 person, then their degree of relationship is likely to have been from 1 (or more) of the above.

[Holmes' Idiot Brother]

I agree.

Two individual killers operating separately; one responsible for the murder of Eddowes, and the other for Kelly; is too far-fetched, especially considering the vast similarities between the 2 victims.

However, 2 killers working together; 2 men, or a couple...

...is indeed possible.

I see what you're saying; kind of a "Hillside Strangler" situation. They would have to very sure of one another. The trust would have to be absolute. Especially in light of the most extensive manhunt in English history at the time.

[chubbs]

A small excerpt from the Coroner's summing up, at the inquest into the death of Liz Stride:

'She never accused any one of having threatened her. She never expressed any fear of anyone, and, although she had outbursts of drunkenness, she was generally a quiet woman. The ordinary motives of murder - revenge, jealousy, theft, and passion - appeared, therefore, to be absent from this case; while it was clear from the accounts of all who saw her that night, as well as from the post-mortem examination, that she was not otherwise than sober at the time of her death. In the absence of motive, the age and class of woman selected as victim, and the place and time of the crime, there was a similarity between this case and those mysteries which had recently occurred in that neighbourhood. There had been no skilful mutilation as in the cases of Nichols and Chapman, and no unskilful injuries as in the case in Mitre-square - possibly the work of an imitator; but there had been the same skill exhibited in the way in which the victim had been entrapped, and the injuries inflicted, so as to cause instant death and prevent blood from soiling the operator, and the same daring defiance of immediate detection...'

So, Liz Stride was not murdered by anyone she had a relationship with, as the result of a dispute. She appears to have had no enemies. She was not robbed either. Her murderer killed her simply for the act of killing - as with the other Ripper murders.

Her throat was severely cut, as with the other Ripper murders and it was done in such a way as to avoid the killer getting blood on himself. This is the same MO as the other Ripper murders. I believe the moment he inflicted the cut was the moment he was disturbed by Lewis Diemschutz's horse & cart, or there would probably have been a second cut inflicted, just to make sure.

The killer selected an 'unfortunate' woman, in the dark, as his victim, as in the other Ripper attacks.

The attack took place within that small area around Whitechapel, within that very narrow period of time in 1888.

It is highly likely that the killer was disturbed during his attack, as the victim was warm when discovered and blood was flowing.


Despite the lack of abdominal mutilations to this poor woman, I believe that Liz Stride was killed by the same deranged man who murdered the other four 'canonical' Ripper victims and he would have eviscerated and posed her, had time allowed. At least the interruption allowed her slightly less indignity in death than those other poor women.

[The Rookie Detective]

You are so correct Georgeb it is an interesting topic. The Stride case seems to baffle us but in some ways there are more 'witnesses' to what was going on than we could ever wish for. Its just that what people say about that night doesn't gel together very well as we all know. I think there is a chance we can solve this. Hang on a minute maybe I'm dreaming.

I do think we could piece together some undisputable facts about that night which we all can agree on.

For example James Brown states when speaking of the couple that he saw that the man was wearing a long coat almost to his heels. This is such a specific observation even if we say not all the way to the heels he does say a LONG COAT. Are we able to say that this man he sees is not the same man described by others as having a short or frock coat. I think so.

Then work out from there maybe. This is not the couple seen by PC Smith earlier. It could be the same woman. But PC Smith at the inquest describes a cutaway coat which is not a long coat almost to the heels.

That sort of thing

NW

It's interesting also that every single alleged witness in and around Berner St that night stated; in one way or another, that the street was relatively quiet.

Except one.

It's only Schwartz that brings the noise and drama.

[The Rookie Detective]

I am curious about that, too. Never heard of any controversy surrounding Kelly being a victim. The idea of two such monsters in that small area and time frame is too far-fetched to me. I also include Tabram as a victim of the Ripper.

I agree.

Two individual killers operating separately; one responsible for the murder of Eddowes, and the other for Kelly; is too far-fetched, especially considering the vast similarities between the 2 victims.

However, 2 killers working together; 2 men, or a couple...

...is indeed possible.