Was Liz Stride a Ripper Victim?

[Observer]

What?

Come now, you're not that naïve. The whole exercise of your mammoth delve into LVP knife crime in the East End of London was down to the fact that you're desperate to include Stride in the series. Without Stride the Diary collapses like a stack of cards in a hurricane

[erobitha]

Could we see the statistics for three women having their throats cut on the same night?

The Daily Telegraph
MONDAY, OCTOBER 1, 1888

Page 2

MURDER IN WESTMINSTER

Shortly before eleven o'clock, on Saturday night, a man named John Brown murdered his wife Sarah by cutting her head nearly off, at the house at which they lived, No. 11, Regent-gardens, Regency-street, Westminster

"two independent throat-cutting murders happening within an hour, in the same small area, without being related, is effectively near zero."

Your example was a domestic incident indoors, at Regency Street, and it was almost a decapitation. Not exactly the same.

[Patrick Differ]

Always a great topic. My personal belief is that Stride was a Ripper victim and was interrupted. Murdering Eddowes 45 minutes later could be an incredible coincidence but it's hard to deny that the entire sequence of events that night appear to be connected. Meaning what?
JtR hunted these women from Flower and Dean and Thrawl Street where virtually All of the victims had stayed if they were not on the Street. Nichols, Chapman, Stride started their journey the night of their murders that night ,as did Kelly, from this area. I do not believe that this killer just wandered the areas where they were murdered. This might explain how the killer ended up on Bucks Row and Berner Street. The most eastern and southern locations of the killings. Just my thinking.
The yelling of Lipski has been debated but my personal belief is the Killer knew exactly where he was in relation to the Israel Lipski assumed murder of Miriam Angel. A murder that divided the Jewish community as most thought Lipski was not the killer and was railroaded by a Gentile Justice System. Could it simply have been a slur? Maybe but who but a Jew would have thought about it at that location over a year later?

JtR, after being interrupted with Stride, moved West towards his comfort zone ,and likely home ,where he would run into Eddowes in the vicinity of Aldgate around Mitre Square and St Botolphs. The latter being a known hotbed for finding prostitutes. Eddowes headed to Aldgate from jail at 1am so the timing is easily workable.

The throat cutting method ( the victim on the ground) is a JtR MO. Stride fits that clearly.

The connection between these events, in my mind anyway, is 3 things: the shout out of Lipski, the deposit of Eddowes apron at Goulston and the message written in chalk over the apron regarding Jews not being blamed for nothing.

The Berner Street location and Lipski shout out was either a slur or a reference to the murder 1 year earlier. If the killer was a Jew why would he yell a slur at another Jew? Because the killer was a gentile but knew where he was and used Jewish slurs in a Jewish neighborhood 1 year later? That is very doubtful.

The killer was not done after Stride and clearly not done after Eddowes. Why dump the bloody apron piece from Eddowes and leave the graffiti message at Goulston Street? And where was the Killer between 1:45 am and 2:55 am when the Apron was found ( evidently not there at 2:20 am) ?

The Ripper was working and thinking in real time between the hours of , let's say 10 am to 3 am, in which he committed 2 murders, including a mutilation, within 45 minutes of each other, and roughly within a 15 minute walk from each other. And then disappears from approximately either 1:45 am to 2:20 or 2:55 am where he leaves 2 clues.

in effect the killer, if we consider that he disappeared between 1:45 am to sometime before 2:55 am in the Goulston Street vicinity, ended this sequence of murders from the approximate area where Stride started her evening.

To understand Stride is to understand Eddowes and this entire series of events that evening. If it's one killer than it's a combination of ALL things. If it's 2 different killers than Stride is not a victim.

DO any suspects tie to the collection of these events? In fact yes.
One suspect had a direct tie to Lipski as they shared the same barrister in a criminal trial and both were Jews who believed they were falsely accused.
This same suspect was accused and convicted by his fellow Jew and next door neighbor and direct competitor, who formerly had his business on Goulston Street for 16 years, before being displaced by the Wentworth Street Dwellings.
The same Goulston Street location where the Apron and Grafitti were found. Coincidences? Maybe not.

THe suspect is Jacob Levy, who happened to live on Middlesex Street between Mitre Square and Goulston.

Stride was likely always Ripper victim.

[GBinOz]

Statistical Probability of Another Woman Being Murdered by Throat-Cutting on the Same Night

To assess the likelihood of another woman being murdered by throat-cutting in Whitechapel on the same night as Catherine Eddowes (September 30, 1888), we need to consider historical crime rates, population data, and serial killer behaviour.

1. Historical Murder Rates in Whitechapel (1888)

• Whitechapel was a dangerous area, with high crime rates, but murders were still relatively rare compared to assaults and robberies.
• Recorded murders in Whitechapel for 1888:
• The five canonical Ripper victims + other disputed cases.
• The majority of murders in the area involved beatings, stabbings, or strangulation—not throat-cutting.


Likelihood of Throat-Cutting as a Murder Method

• Most murders in Whitechapel at the time did not involve throat-cutting.
• The primary cause of death in violent assaults was blunt force trauma, stabbing, or strangulation.
• Throat-cutting is a highly specific and rare method, usually associated with ritualistic or extremely violent murders rather than casual street crime.

✅ Conclusion: The chance of another unrelated throat-cutting murder occurring on the exact same night is extremely low.


2. Population and Crime Data in 1888

• Whitechapel had an estimated population of 76,000, primarily consisting of impoverished individuals, including many sex workers who were highly vulnerable.
• The number of violent crimes (assaults, robberies, and domestic violence) was high, but murders were infrequent.
• In 1888, the murder rate in London was roughly 1.4 per 100,000 people per year, meaning Whitechapel might have had a handful of murders annually.

✅ Conclusion: The probability of two unrelated murders of women on the street by throat-cutting within the same hour is statistically improbable.


3. Serial Killer Behavior: The “Double Event”

• Serial killers sometimes commit multiple murders in a single night due to:
• Unfulfilled urges (the first kill was interrupted or did not provide full satisfaction).
• A ritual escalation (the killer feels emboldened and needs to “complete” the act).
• Compulsion (once started, the killer cannot stop until they feel satisfied).
• Other serial killers with “Double Events”:
• Ted Bundy (1974): Kidnapped and murdered two women (Janice Ott and Denise Naslund) in a single afternoon.
• Gary Ridgway (Green River Killer): On several occasions, he murdered multiple victims in one day.
• BTK Killer (Dennis Rader): Committed a spree killing of multiple victims within hours.

✅ Conclusion: Serial killers are far more likely than random street criminals to commit two near-identical murders in quick succession.


4. Geographic and Time Considerations

• Elizabeth Stride was murdered at 12:45 AM in Dutfield’s Yard.
• Catherine Eddowes was murdered at 1:45 AM, just 45 minutes later, in Mitre Square.
• The two locations were about 15 minutes apart by foot.
• If these were two different killers:
• The second killer would have had to independently decide to kill a woman with the exact same method within the same 45-minute period.
• The chances of this happening without prior coordination would be astronomically low.

✅ Conclusion: If another murderer was operating in the same area, on the same night, using the same method, it would be one of the most bizarre coincidences in criminal history.


5. Modern Probability Estimate

To put a rough numerical probability on this:

1. The annual murder rate in Whitechapel was low (~5–10 murders per year).
2. The rate of murder by throat-cutting was even lower (less than 1% of all violent crimes).
3. The chance of two independent throat-cutting murders happening within an hour, in the same small area, without being related, is effectively near zero.


Mathematically, this could be expressed as:



This means that the likelihood of a completely unrelated killer using the same method in the same area within an hour is statistically near impossible.

✅ Final Verdict: It is almost certain that Stride and Eddowes were killed by the same person. The probability of two different killers performing the exact same act, at the exact same time, in the exact same area, is vanishingly small. Jack the Ripper likely killed both women.

Could we see the statistics for three women having their throats cut on the same night?

The Daily Telegraph
MONDAY, OCTOBER 1, 1888

Page 2

MURDER IN WESTMINSTER

Shortly before eleven o'clock, on Saturday night, a man named John Brown murdered his wife Sarah by cutting her head nearly off, at the house at which they lived, No. 11, Regent-gardens, Regency-street, Westminster

[Kattrup]

Anyway, am I making a decent argument? Have I missed anything? I'm curious to know what you think.

I think you covered it well.

I consider Stride a Ripper-victim. It wasnt as public as you make out, there was a gate that could be closed (and in my opinion was), it was dark and it was away from the street. From witness accounts we know there were few people about.
Although the club was active, there were few comings and goings.

Other victims were killed in the open street so I don’t think the location was a problem for the killer.
As for lack of mutilations, the killer may have been interrupted (I think he was). I believe the police at the time favored this explanation, that Diemschietz’ cart scared him off.

Another reason may have been that the site was too dark. Probably the darkest of the sites; if you recall, Diemschietz had to light a match just to see that the bundle on the ground was a woman. Perhaps the near total darkness was too much for someone looking to cut away clothing and extract organs and what not.

[erobitha]

Then why was "Maybrick", still standing over the unmutilated body of Elizabeth Stride as Diemshitz disturbed him at 1:00 a.m?

As you well know, exact timings cannot be established. Sorry, I did not put "circa 12.45"

[erobitha]

From his fevered mind which tells him if Stride is not a Ripper victim then Maybrick can not be the Whitechapel fiend

What?

[erobitha]

Wow! Holy Smokes! Your post is AWESOME!!!! Seriously, I cannot love it enough! These are the very considerations I have always felt defied probability and chance. May I ask where you got the stats? And THANK YOU!!

ChatGPT. The data sources are quoted on there as well.

[Herlock Sholmes]

I looked for previous discussions of this issue, and the only one I could find was from 2015.

I have an issue with the idea of "canonical" victims, since canonicity implies absolute truth. It seems very reasonable to assume Nichols, Chapman, and Eddowes (and in my personal opinion Tabram) were murdered by the same killer. I also personally believe Kelly was, but good points have been made to suggest she wasn't.

I'm pretty convinced Stride was not killed by the same murderer. Here are my reasons; if I make any factual errors please let me know, I'm new to this.

1.) The location where Stride was killed was very busy at the time of the murder; none of the other murders took place in such an active, public place, or so early in the evening.
2.) Stride was not mutilated. This is usually explained by saying the murderer was interrupted; but again, it would be a very dumb place to commit the murder, since Stride was discovered very quickly after death. (Nichols was discovered just after death, but that was on an empty street.) There was a group of people singing just a few yards away!
3.) Stride was seen arguing with a man just minutes before her murder. Certainly the Ripper may have been speaking with victims before luring them to more private locations. But would he fight with her and call attention to himself? Would he then go ahead and kill her, basically on the same spot, after making a scene? Isn't it more likely that this man, NOT the Ripper, killed Stride in a fit of passion, and then fled?

Of course the killer could have been the Ripper, I can't prove otherwise. But I wouldn't be the first person to suggest that Stride was included in the Ripper murders because a "Double Event" made for a sexy story in the press. It seems the police considered her a Ripper victim, which cannot be ignored. But I've noted elsewhere I don't think much of the Met in 1888.

Anyway, am I making a decent argument? Have I missed anything? I'm curious to know what you think.

There is this poll Kunochan…welcome to Casebook by the way.

https://forum.casebook.org/forum/ripper-discussions/suspects/general-suspect-discussion/842121-stride-yes-no-or-god-knows

And this one.

https://forum.casebook.org/forum/ripper-discussions/victims/elizabeth-stride/834157-who-killed-stride

[Observer]

• Elizabeth Stride was murdered at 12:45 AM in Dutfield’s Yard.

Then why was "Maybrick", still standing over the unmutilated body of Elizabeth Stride as Diemshitz disturbed him at 1:00 a.m?

[Observer]

Wow! Holy Smokes! Your post is AWESOME!!!! Seriously, I cannot love it enough! May I ask where you got the stats? And THANK YOU!!

From his fevered mind which tells him if Stride is not a Ripper victim then Maybrick can not be the Whitechapel fiend

By the way, correct me if I am wrong, but do i detect a hint of sarcasm in your comments?

[Holmes' Idiot Brother]

Statistical Probability of Another Woman Being Murdered by Throat-Cutting on the Same Night

To assess the likelihood of another woman being murdered by throat-cutting in Whitechapel on the same night as Catherine Eddowes (September 30, 1888), we need to consider historical crime rates, population data, and serial killer behaviour.

1. Historical Murder Rates in Whitechapel (1888)

• Whitechapel was a dangerous area, with high crime rates, but murders were still relatively rare compared to assaults and robberies.
• Recorded murders in Whitechapel for 1888:
• The five canonical Ripper victims + other disputed cases.
• The majority of murders in the area involved beatings, stabbings, or strangulation—not throat-cutting.


Likelihood of Throat-Cutting as a Murder Method

• Most murders in Whitechapel at the time did not involve throat-cutting.
• The primary cause of death in violent assaults was blunt force trauma, stabbing, or strangulation.
• Throat-cutting is a highly specific and rare method, usually associated with ritualistic or extremely violent murders rather than casual street crime.

✅ Conclusion: The chance of another unrelated throat-cutting murder occurring on the exact same night is extremely low.


2. Population and Crime Data in 1888

• Whitechapel had an estimated population of 76,000, primarily consisting of impoverished individuals, including many sex workers who were highly vulnerable.
• The number of violent crimes (assaults, robberies, and domestic violence) was high, but murders were infrequent.
• In 1888, the murder rate in London was roughly 1.4 per 100,000 people per year, meaning Whitechapel might have had a handful of murders annually.

✅ Conclusion: The probability of two unrelated murders of women on the street by throat-cutting within the same hour is statistically improbable.


3. Serial Killer Behavior: The “Double Event”

• Serial killers sometimes commit multiple murders in a single night due to:
• Unfulfilled urges (the first kill was interrupted or did not provide full satisfaction).
• A ritual escalation (the killer feels emboldened and needs to “complete” the act).
• Compulsion (once started, the killer cannot stop until they feel satisfied).
• Other serial killers with “Double Events”:
• Ted Bundy (1974): Kidnapped and murdered two women (Janice Ott and Denise Naslund) in a single afternoon.
• Gary Ridgway (Green River Killer): On several occasions, he murdered multiple victims in one day.
• BTK Killer (Dennis Rader): Committed a spree killing of multiple victims within hours.

✅ Conclusion: Serial killers are far more likely than random street criminals to commit two near-identical murders in quick succession.


4. Geographic and Time Considerations

• Elizabeth Stride was murdered at 12:45 AM in Dutfield’s Yard.
• Catherine Eddowes was murdered at 1:45 AM, just 45 minutes later, in Mitre Square.
• The two locations were about 15 minutes apart by foot.
• If these were two different killers:
• The second killer would have had to independently decide to kill a woman with the exact same method within the same 45-minute period.
• The chances of this happening without prior coordination would be astronomically low.

✅ Conclusion: If another murderer was operating in the same area, on the same night, using the same method, it would be one of the most bizarre coincidences in criminal history.


5. Modern Probability Estimate

To put a rough numerical probability on this:

1. The annual murder rate in Whitechapel was low (~5–10 murders per year).
2. The rate of murder by throat-cutting was even lower (less than 1% of all violent crimes).
3. The chance of two independent throat-cutting murders happening within an hour, in the same small area, without being related, is effectively near zero.


Mathematically, this could be expressed as:



This means that the likelihood of a completely unrelated killer using the same method in the same area within an hour is statistically near impossible.

✅ Final Verdict: It is almost certain that Stride and Eddowes were killed by the same person. The probability of two different killers performing the exact same act, at the exact same time, in the exact same area, is vanishingly small. Jack the Ripper likely killed both women.

Wow! Holy Smokes! Your post is AWESOME!!!! Seriously, I cannot love it enough! These are the very considerations I have always felt defied probability and chance. May I ask where you got the stats? And THANK YOU!!

[erobitha]

Statistical Probability of Another Woman Being Murdered by Throat-Cutting on the Same Night

To assess the likelihood of another woman being murdered by throat-cutting in Whitechapel on the same night as Catherine Eddowes (September 30, 1888), we need to consider historical crime rates, population data, and serial killer behaviour.

1. Historical Murder Rates in Whitechapel (1888)

• Whitechapel was a dangerous area, with high crime rates, but murders were still relatively rare compared to assaults and robberies.
• Recorded murders in Whitechapel for 1888:
• The five canonical Ripper victims + other disputed cases.
• The majority of murders in the area involved beatings, stabbings, or strangulation—not throat-cutting.


Likelihood of Throat-Cutting as a Murder Method

• Most murders in Whitechapel at the time did not involve throat-cutting.
• The primary cause of death in violent assaults was blunt force trauma, stabbing, or strangulation.
• Throat-cutting is a highly specific and rare method, usually associated with ritualistic or extremely violent murders rather than casual street crime.

✅ Conclusion: The chance of another unrelated throat-cutting murder occurring on the exact same night is extremely low.


2. Population and Crime Data in 1888

• Whitechapel had an estimated population of 76,000, primarily consisting of impoverished individuals, including many sex workers who were highly vulnerable.
• The number of violent crimes (assaults, robberies, and domestic violence) was high, but murders were infrequent.
• In 1888, the murder rate in London was roughly 1.4 per 100,000 people per year, meaning Whitechapel might have had a handful of murders annually.

✅ Conclusion: The probability of two unrelated murders of women on the street by throat-cutting within the same hour is statistically improbable.


3. Serial Killer Behavior: The “Double Event”

• Serial killers sometimes commit multiple murders in a single night due to:
• Unfulfilled urges (the first kill was interrupted or did not provide full satisfaction).
• A ritual escalation (the killer feels emboldened and needs to “complete” the act).
• Compulsion (once started, the killer cannot stop until they feel satisfied).
• Other serial killers with “Double Events”:
• Ted Bundy (1974): Kidnapped and murdered two women (Janice Ott and Denise Naslund) in a single afternoon.
• Gary Ridgway (Green River Killer): On several occasions, he murdered multiple victims in one day.
• BTK Killer (Dennis Rader): Committed a spree killing of multiple victims within hours.

✅ Conclusion: Serial killers are far more likely than random street criminals to commit two near-identical murders in quick succession.


4. Geographic and Time Considerations

• Elizabeth Stride was murdered at 12:45 AM in Dutfield’s Yard.
• Catherine Eddowes was murdered at 1:45 AM, just 45 minutes later, in Mitre Square.
• The two locations were about 15 minutes apart by foot.
• If these were two different killers:
• The second killer would have had to independently decide to kill a woman with the exact same method within the same 45-minute period.
• The chances of this happening without prior coordination would be astronomically low.

✅ Conclusion: If another murderer was operating in the same area, on the same night, using the same method, it would be one of the most bizarre coincidences in criminal history.


5. Modern Probability Estimate

To put a rough numerical probability on this:

1. The annual murder rate in Whitechapel was low (~5–10 murders per year).
2. The rate of murder by throat-cutting was even lower (less than 1% of all violent crimes).
3. The chance of two independent throat-cutting murders happening within an hour, in the same small area, without being related, is effectively near zero.


Mathematically, this could be expressed as:



This means that the likelihood of a completely unrelated killer using the same method in the same area within an hour is statistically near impossible.

✅ Final Verdict: It is almost certain that Stride and Eddowes were killed by the same person. The probability of two different killers performing the exact same act, at the exact same time, in the exact same area, is vanishingly small. Jack the Ripper likely killed both women.

[GBinOz]

Who the hell is "Eddowes"???

KIDDING!! Yeah, Forgot to mention her.

No Problem HIB.

There is some medical evidence upon which one may speculate that the Eddowes and Kelly murders are related, to the exclusion of the others, but that is not the consensus of opinion.

Cheers, George

[Holmes' Idiot Brother]

Hi HIB,

I am in entire agreement with your assessment of McNaughton and his memorandum. Did you inadvertently omit Eddowes from your list? If not, I would be interested to hear your reason for doing so.

Cheers, George

Who the hell is "Eddowes"???

KIDDING!! Yeah, Forgot to mention her.