Was Liz Stride a Ripper Victim?

[New Waterloo]

You are so correct Georgeb it is an interesting topic. The Stride case seems to baffle us but in some ways there are more 'witnesses' to what was going on than we could ever wish for. Its just that what people say about that night doesn't gel together very well as we all know. I think there is a chance we can solve this. Hang on a minute maybe I'm dreaming.

I do think we could piece together some undisputable facts about that night which we all can agree on.

For example James Brown states when speaking of the couple that he saw that the man was wearing a long coat almost to his heels. This is such a specific observation even if we say not all the way to the heels he does say a LONG COAT. Are we able to say that this man he sees is not the same man described by others as having a short or frock coat. I think so.

Then work out from there maybe. This is not the couple seen by PC Smith earlier. It could be the same woman. But PC Smith at the inquest describes a cutaway coat which is not a long coat almost to the heels.

That sort of thing

NW

[Holmes' Idiot Brother]

Thanks for starting this thread I always find this topic interesting. Like many my opinion of Stride being a victim can change from post to post never mind week by week.
My view Martha Tabram yes. Nichols and Chapman yes. Stride don't know yes/no. Eddowes and Kelly yes.
Was interested that a few posters had doubts about Mary Kelly was a Ripper victim. I have never heard the reasons for the doubt as she seems the archetypal victim?

I am curious about that, too. Never heard of any controversy surrounding Kelly being a victim. The idea of two such monsters in that small area and time frame is too far-fetched to me. I also include Tabram as a victim of the Ripper.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Hello Herlock the idea of JTR pulling her away from the yard has a great deal of merit I think. There is evidence I believe that she did some work for members of the Jewish community. Charring I think is the expression a cleaning lady or tea lady I think. My mum was a charwoman many years ago. She may have been going into the yard judging it to be a safe place and he becomes agitated and cuts her throat as you say. I like to sound of that.

So JTR is a firm possibility.

If its not JTR then we have to look at persons who would cut a persons throat for no reason. If its not JTR could I suggest it has to be someone with a connection to Stride in some way or a reason. I just cant see one unless it was someone she had upset.

I have wondered if she interrupted something going on. Got in the way of something but cant see anything to suggest that really but is hanging about in my head.

One suggestion that I made on the other thread was an alternative to the suggestion that she was standing in the gateway waiting for someone. It was back to the suggestion that she had been with BS man earlier, had separated with some (perhaps false) suggestion that they might meet up later. She walks along Berner Street and sees BS man approaching ahead. She ducks into the gateway hoping that he hasn’t seen her but too late. He arrives and the altercation seen by Schwartz occurs.

[The Rookie Detective]

The fact that Eddowes also worked for the Jews, and mentioned 6 Fashion St; at the back of which was the Jewish soup kitchen, and Stride was murdered on the same night as Eddowes, whose cut piece of apron was taken by the killer and dropped under some chalk messaging referring to the Jewish community, plus the fact that Eddowes uses the name Mary Kelly, who is the name of the next victim, plus the fact that McKenzie also worked for the Jews...

...the link is there...

The Moab and Midian letter also has references that target non-Jewish women who the writer believes have corrupted the Jewish men, through last and temptation.

It all points to a Jewish man attacking non-Jewish women.

But that could all be smoke and mirrors and have nothing to do with the killer's true identity.

It does explain however why the police seemed to have focused on the killer being Jewish; when referring to Kosminski for example. The anti-semitic rhetoric at the time clearly swayed the investigation, and when looking at the link between Stride, Eddowes and Mckenzie etc...it is perhaps easier to see why.

[New Waterloo]

Hello Herlock the idea of JTR pulling her away from the yard has a great deal of merit I think. There is evidence I believe that she did some work for members of the Jewish community. Charring I think is the expression a cleaning lady or tea lady I think. My mum was a charwoman many years ago. She may have been going into the yard judging it to be a safe place and he becomes agitated and cuts her throat as you say. I like to sound of that.

So JTR is a firm possibility.

If its not JTR then we have to look at persons who would cut a persons throat for no reason. If its not JTR could I suggest it has to be someone with a connection to Stride in some way or a reason. I just cant see one unless it was someone she had upset.

I have wondered if she interrupted something going on. Got in the way of something but cant see anything to suggest that really but is hanging about in my head.

[Herlock Sholmes]

You’ve made perfect sense NW. I’ve said this before but in close to 40 years I’ve gone back and forth on the question of whether Stride was a ripper victim or not. At the moment I hedge toward ‘no’ because of the location but I could be guilty of a ‘well, I wouldn’t have killed her at that location’ syndrome. I’m not a murderer or a madman though (honestly) so it’s impossible to know what the killer was thinking. One conjecture that I’ve made on another thread is that perhaps BS man was the guy that Marshall had seen earlier with a woman who could have been Stride. Maybe he was someone that she wasn’t keen on so she made some excuse to get away from him but he then ran into her at the gates. A maybe she turned him down and his ego just wouldn’t allow for that so he stabbed her? Total speculation of course NW.

Another slight twist could be that perhaps it was the ripper and he wanted her to go with him to a more suitable location (hence the pulling seen by Schwartz) but she refused to go and he killed her either in anger for the refusal or perhaps he was paranoid that she might have suspected his purpose. The more I think of this one the more I hedge my way back to the fence on this subject.

[New Waterloo]

I am quite keen on letting the evidence speak and take it on face value certainly at first. The Stride murder is a real puzzler. So many odd things. One minute Berner Street is very quiet, then its busy. Only recently we discover that just before Stride is murdered we have maybe 4 couples standing around. People coming and going etc. The we read again all quiet. Its complex.

However we do know something.

JTR killed women by cutting their throats and then mutilated them in some way. So yes she may have been killed by JTR and he was interrupted

Another person may have killed her BUT that person would need a motive. What purpose would be served by just randomly cutting a woman's throat and killing her for no reason. I would imagine it hardly ever happens

Unless in my opinion he had a grievance with Stride serious enough for him to cut her throat. A domestic, drunken partner, robbery gone wrong. In other words a connection of some sorts. I cant see (other than Kidney) any reason for anyone to just cut her throat and kill her.

Not sure I have made much sense but worth a post I think



NW

[John Wheat]

Hi Kunochan,

IMHO it was not Kelly that was found in the room that morning. The evidence does not support that contention.

Cheers, George

How so? What evidence?

[FrankO]

Hello Frank,

But you are limiting yourself to a physical interruption. If it was mind generated paranoia it could have taken place at any time. Even before he killed her if the location made him wary.

c.d.

True enough, c.d.. On the other hand, if he was mentally spooked before he did anything suspicious, he could just as well not even start doing anything suspicious, i.e. abort his mission. But, as we know, he didn't do that.

Anyway, if he was disturbed by something physical or in his mind before he did anything suspicious, then he wasn't interrupted, but just chose to kill her anyway, knowing that he couldn't mutilate her as well.

And if he was really interrupted, then that was while he was cutting the throat or had just finished it.

As neither of these possibilities convince me, I, for now, am inclined to think Stride wasn't killed by JtR.

Cheers,
Frank

[c.d.]

Hello Frank,

But you are limiting yourself to a physical interruption. If it was mind generated paranoia it could have taken place at any time. Even before he killed her if the location made him wary.

c.d.

[FrankO]

But whoever killed her was still willing to take that chance.

Hi c.d.,

This is a reason why I'm not concinced.

Which raises the question: would he kill a woman if he could count on not being able to also mutilate her?

But the whole idea of an interruption is that it was not expected.

So, if he was interrupted, then he was interrupted while he was cutting the throat or had just finished it. Or else Stride would have been found on her back or even with her clothes pulled up. Which suggests that the Ripper thought that, whoever or whatever it was that interrupted him, was very close when that happened.

Cheers,
Frank

[c.d.]

Although I'm not convinced, I'm inclined to think Stride wasn't a Ripper victim. I agree with the first reason you mention: there were still too many possible witnesses up & about at and around the time Stride was killed.

But whoever killed her was still willing to take that chance.

Which raises the question: would he kill a woman if he could count on not being able to also mutilate her?

But the whole idea of an interruption is that it was not expected.

c.d.

[FrankO]

I looked for previous discussions of this issue, and the only one I could find was from 2015.

I have an issue with the idea of "canonical" victims, since canonicity implies absolute truth. It seems very reasonable to assume Nichols, Chapman, and Eddowes (and in my personal opinion Tabram) were murdered by the same killer. I also personally believe Kelly was, but good points have been made to suggest she wasn't.

I'm pretty convinced Stride was not killed by the same murderer. Here are my reasons; if I make any factual errors please let me know, I'm new to this.

1.) The location where Stride was killed was very busy at the time of the murder; none of the other murders took place in such an active, public place, or so early in the evening.
2.) Stride was not mutilated. This is usually explained by saying the murderer was interrupted; but again, it would be a very dumb place to commit the murder, since Stride was discovered very quickly after death. (Nichols was discovered just after death, but that was on an empty street.) There was a group of people singing just a few yards away!
3.) Stride was seen arguing with a man just minutes before her murder. Certainly the Ripper may have been speaking with victims before luring them to more private locations. But would he fight with her and call attention to himself? Would he then go ahead and kill her, basically on the same spot, after making a scene? Isn't it more likely that this man, NOT the Ripper, killed Stride in a fit of passion, and then fled?

Of course the killer could have been the Ripper, I can't prove otherwise. But I wouldn't be the first person to suggest that Stride was included in the Ripper murders because a "Double Event" made for a sexy story in the press. It seems the police considered her a Ripper victim, which cannot be ignored. But I've noted elsewhere I don't think much of the Met in 1888.

Anyway, am I making a decent argument? Have I missed anything? I'm curious to know what you think.

Hi Kunochan,

Although I'm not convinced, I'm inclined to think Stride wasn't a Ripper victim. I agree with the first reason you mention: there were still too many possible witnesses up & about at and around the time Stride was killed.

I also agree with your second reason, but not just that she wasn't mutilated. From the other outdoor murders we might conclude that the Ripper didn't raise any/enough suspicions in his victims until it was too late. In other words, he could have aborted his 'mission' at any time before actually striking without his intended victim being any the wiser. Which raises the question: would he kill a woman if he could count on not being able to also mutilate her?

In Stride's case we have a woman lying more or less on her side and not on her back, which would have been the way the Ripper needed her. So, if it was the Ripper who was interrupted, then we'd have to assume that he was interrupted at the latest immediately after having cut the throat. He, apparently, hadn't even time to turn her onto her back.

Or he just felt like only killing her and left before anything or anybody could interrupt him.

Because I don't find any of this very convincing, I'm inclined to think she didn't fall victim to the Ripper.

Cheers,
Frank

[GBinOz]

My understanding is that the idea that Kelly (or whoever actually died there, if you believe Kelly was seen alive the next morning) is based on an outmoded idea, that serial killers do not significantly change their MO. This has been demonstrated to be false.

Hi Kunochan,

IMHO it was not Kelly that was found in the room that morning. The evidence does not support that contention.

Cheers, George

[John Wheat]

I think Stride was probably a Ripper victim but of course she may not have been. I would say the same about Tabram.