When was Elizabeth Stride actually killed?

[lynn cates]

analogy

Hello Dusty.

"I'd be inclined to agree if it wasn't for those damn cachous."

Precisely.

"It's so difficult to imagine a scenario where Mrs Stride was thrown around before death and still chose to hold on to breath freshers."

Or, to go for them. A fair analogy can be had with a cigarette. Not likely to stop for a fag in the midst of a fracas.

Cheers.
LC

[Wickerman]

Hello Tom,

"Diemshits could not see the wound to her throat from his vantage."

I've never seen an account of what exactly his vantage was when he looked with the candle, but he definitely claimed to have seen the cut throat,

"I hurried into the Club to see my "missis." I saw her inside the door, and hurriedly called some of the members of the club, who at once came down. You know what we found, Sir. The poor creature's throat was horribly cut."
(Echo Oct 01)

Stride was laid essentially facing the wall, the distance between her face and the wall was a matter of inches. Therefore all the witnesses were assembled behind her, among them the doctors, who could see the throat wound. That being the case, I fail to see why Diemschitz couldn't see what the doctors could see from the same vantage point.

Hello Dusty.

"I'd be inclined to agree if it wasn't for those damn cachous."

Precisely.

"It's so difficult to imagine a scenario where Mrs Stride was thrown around before death and still chose to hold on to breath freshers."

Or, to go for them. A fair analogy can be had with a cigarette. Not likely to stop for a fag in the midst of a fracas.

Cheers.
LC

We're pretty much short of options aren't we?
Stride either held onto those cachous in a lightning attack where her fingers momentarily clenched or, the killer placed them in her hand after the attack.
Which is the most likely?

[c.d.]

Hello Abby.

"Sounds like she could have been a pretty damning witness after all, no?"

No. Unless, of course, the charge were malicious shoving. And, as we all know, that can get you a stern lecture from a beat copper.

Cheers.
LC

"Malicious shoving?" Good one, Lynn. That's a classic.

c.d.

[c.d.]

"We're pretty much short of options aren't we?
Stride either held onto those cachous in a lightning attack where her fingers momentarily clenched or, the killer placed them in her hand after the attack.
Which is the most likely?"

Hello Wickerman,

You seem to be referring to her actual death. The reference to her holding on to the cachous is being made in respect to her being thrown down by the B.S. man.

c.d.

[Wickerman]

Hello Wickerman,

You seem to be referring to her actual death. The reference to her holding on to the cachous is being made in respect to her being thrown down by the B.S. man.

c.d.

Yes, though not all agree the fracas was any appreciable distance in time from the knife attack.
If there is reasonable cause to doubt that the story Diemschitz told could be crammed into 10 minutes then Stride could have been 'cut' nearer to 12:45 than 1:00 am.

[Abby Normal]

"Malicious shoving?" Good one, Lynn. That's a classic.

c.d.

HI CD and Lynn
How about Assault and Battery?
Oh yes HAHAHA so funny.
A female being beat up in the street is so ******* "classic".

[c.d.]

That seems to have touched a nerve with you, Abby.

Who was beaten up? According to Schwartz, Liz was merely pushed to the ground. And even that could have been accidental.

As far as "assault and battery" what do you think would have been the B.S. man's punishment for that? I think Lynn called it correctly when he said it would probably warrant a mere lecture and a don't do it again.

I think you are seriously overreacting to what is being said.

c.d.

[Wickerman]

This is a period in history when women didn't matter in the grand scheme of things. We even come across this in everyday exchanges. In the press when we read "there was no-one in the street", what is meant is 'there were no males in the street', any number of females and/or children may have been walking on the street at the time, but their significance was not always acknowledged by society.
If a man was seen beating up a woman the assumption was often that she deserved it. The actions of Emily Pankhurst were still a quarter of a century away.

[lynn cates]

trifurcation

Hello Jon. Thanks.

"We're pretty much short of options aren't we?"

Indeed.

"Stride either held onto those cachous in a lightning attack where her fingers momentarily clenched . . ."

Yes, my favourite scenario.

". . . or, the killer placed them in her hand after the attack.
Which is the most likely?"

Certainly NOT the latter. Of course, a jester could claim that her last request was for death to be postponed until AFTER one last cachou. Then, to toy with her, "Jack" killed her before she could taste it. (If you are wondering how we got to Jack, well, I've wondered that myself. Sentimental reasons, perhaps?)

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

B S

Hello CD. Thanks.

Not as classic as Israel's BS story.

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

battery

Hello Abby. Thanks.

Battery? Yes, indeed. Was there not a battery which kept going, and going?

Rather like all the Jack the Ripper rot.

Cheers.
LC

[c.d.]

HI CD and Lynn
How about Assault and Battery?
Oh yes HAHAHA so funny.
A female being beat up in the street is so ******* "classic".

Hello Abby,

You have somehow managed to take what was being said by Lynn and myself completely out of context. In no way, did either of us make light of what happened to Liz. Lynn was simply poking fun at the idea that the B.S. man would kill Liz (an offense for which he would be hanged) so that she would not go to the police and tell them that he had pushed her (an offense that, as Lynn pointed out, would most likely get him a lecture and a don't do it again.)

So there is no need for you to get all bent out of shape.

c.d.

[c.d.]

Hello CD. Thanks.

Not as classic as Israel's BS story.

Cheers.
LC

Yes, we get it, Lynn. You don't believe Schwartz's story. Constantly deriding him doesn't do anything to support your argument.

c.d.

[lynn cates]

argument

Hello CD. Thanks.

Quite. But then, again, constantly adducing mere possibilities does not establish it.

Cheers.
LC

[Michael W Richards]

Hello all,

Im delighted to see that Israel's story has been referred to lately as his BS story, rather than BSM.

The thing with Israels's story is that IF it was believed and that it created an enduring profile of the killer at large, then we would have some indication that it was entered into the Inquest data. Either by submission of the story or the translated testimony in person or in written form. Some mention of him would be unavoidable, his story places the woman who is cut sometime around 12:46 to 12:56 with an assailant at 12:45. There is no question that BSM would be the primary suspect.

It occurs to me that the altercation as described could easily have been something of a domestic issue, based upon the supposed physical actions taken by the Broadshouldered fellow and Liz herself. I can easily see a disgruntled "companion" who is perhaps an anti-Semite coming up and grabbing a woman he knows in the company of such men and attempting to pull her away from them. As he is pulling her "into the street".

That needn't be Kidney, it could be anyone she may have taken up with since leaving Kidney earlier that week,.... or even earlier than that. Kidney states that she did take up with other men during the periods she left him over the years, and "she liked" him better so she returned. That implies to me that Liz left Kidney after meeting someone else, not vice versa.

Thing is I would support Israels story if the altercation he says he saw actually took place within the passageway, since it would place the victim almost on the spot she is to be cut at around the time Blackwell says was the earliest time. Phillips allowed for an earlier cut however.

Maybe the police thought like I do...and its why they couldn't rely on the veracity of Israels account at the Inquest. Maybe they knew something we don't....yet......that Israel was a club member for example.

That modified story would allow for a woman to have been cut around the time Blackwell says she was on the spot where it happened, and it could add credence to at least 4 witnesses who claimed to be in the passageway with Louis and the dying woman around 12:45.

Cheers