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Schwartz is the key witness in putting a timeline on Stride till the discovery of her body a short time after in Dutfield’s Lane.
But remove Schwartz and use Fanny Mortimer's statements, then when was Liz killed? Mortimer saw nothing out of the ordinary while she was on her door step, contradicting Schwartz’s tale of himself as the victim. Note: Charles Letchford tends to support Mortimer over Schwartz.
Following Mortimer's statement, could it mean Liz was killed earlier, probably more than 40 minutes earlier than being discovered? That it happened before she was out on her doorstep seeing nothing?
So as an exercise (only) could Liz have been killed earlier? This is a “what if” scenario just looking at facts differently.
We have Constable William Smith seeing a couple he later thought was Stride and a man at 12.30am in Berner St. At the Inquest, he thought he saw a flower on the woman’s jacket “proving” it was Liz.
Yet at 12.45 am James Brown saw a very similar couple.
The woman spoke without an accent , so that would preclude it was Liz, Smith never heard the woman speak.
We have two couples almost identical, or the same couple seen 15 minutes apart?
For this exercise I am going to say, one couple seen twice and that couple was not Liz and a man.
So when was Liz last seen?
William Marshall said he saw a couple between 11.45am and midnight again a description close to who Smith and Brown saw
So is there a definitive sighting of Liz really? Joseph Gardner’s statements clearly show a lot of information was in the public domain prior to the Inquest. Especially the dead women had a flower in her jacket, that undermines Smith’s testimony as he was “recalling” the couple. He already knew the corpse had a flower in her jacket.
My "what if", is could Liz have been killed earlier from between 11.30pm to 12.30am?
Thomas Coram found a bloody knife nearby at 12.30am.
He told Constable Drage who………..
The knife was later considered unlikely to be the murder weapon by Bagster Phillips but was never fully investigated,
Drage was certain the knife had not been there 15 minutes before Coram found it i.e. at 12.15am. Again it was never investigated any further.
So could that be the weapon that killed Liz between 12 midnight and 12.15am?
The main stumbling block to Liz being killed earlier becomes Joseph Lave who said he was in Dutfield’s Lane itself at 12.40am and saw nothing. Yet it was to dark to see anything.
If Lave did not see Liz because it was to dark, then is there any hard evidence as to when Liz was seen and when she was killed? So could have Liz been killed before 12.30am and the couple seen by Marshall, Smith and Brown been another couple entirely?
The point of the post flows onto to Eddowe’s death, it gives JtR much longer time to get to get to Mitre Square. It gives him more time to “write" the infamous graffiti in Coulston Place.
I disregard “time of death” findings as the endless debate on Annie Chapman’s death shows it was an inexact science in that era.
Selective use of facts can “prove” anything of course, for example two witnesses universally disregarded are Isaac Kozebrdsky and Edward Spooner who both independently say it was approximately 12.40am they were at Dutfield’s Lane to see the body.
So exact timing down to exact minutes is extremely perilous and mostly wish fulfilment to support a theory because the limited facts available can be shuffled round to support any theory.
Note all quotes come from the witness segments on this Board.
But remove Schwartz and use Fanny Mortimer's statements, then when was Liz killed? Mortimer saw nothing out of the ordinary while she was on her door step, contradicting Schwartz’s tale of himself as the victim. Note: Charles Letchford tends to support Mortimer over Schwartz.
Following Mortimer's statement, could it mean Liz was killed earlier, probably more than 40 minutes earlier than being discovered? That it happened before she was out on her doorstep seeing nothing?
So as an exercise (only) could Liz have been killed earlier? This is a “what if” scenario just looking at facts differently.
We have Constable William Smith seeing a couple he later thought was Stride and a man at 12.30am in Berner St. At the Inquest, he thought he saw a flower on the woman’s jacket “proving” it was Liz.
He described the man as being about 28 years of age, 5ft 7in tall, wearing a dark overcoat and trousers. He also wore a hard felt deerstalker hat and was described as 'respectable' looking. ……….. Smith heard no conversation, the couple appeared sober and were not acting in a suspicious manner.
The man was described as being about 5ft 7in tall and stoutly built, wearing a long overcoat which went down almost to his heels. He was wearing a hat, but Brown was unable to describe it. It was quite dark, so he could not tell if the woman was wearing a flower on her jacket, but both appeared sober.
We have two couples almost identical, or the same couple seen 15 minutes apart?
For this exercise I am going to say, one couple seen twice and that couple was not Liz and a man.
So when was Liz last seen?
William Marshall said he saw a couple between 11.45am and midnight again a description close to who Smith and Brown saw
Because there was no lamp nearby, Marshall could not see the man's face clearly, but was able to furnish the inquest with other particulars - he was middle-aged and stout, about 5ft 6in tall, respectably dressed in a small black cut-away coat and dark trousers. He was wearing a small peaked cap, "something like a sailor would wear". He had the appearance of a clerk. The woman was wearing a black jacket and skirt and a black crape bonnet, but did not see the flower that was pinned to the jacket.
Gardner corroborated all that Best said respecting the conduct of the man and the woman at the Bricklayers' Arms, adding "before I got into the mortuary to-day (Sunday), I told you the woman had a flower in her jacket, and that she had a short jacket. Well, I have been to the mortuary and there she was with the dahlias on her right side of her jacket.
Thomas Coram found a bloody knife nearby at 12.30am.
He was returning home from seeing friends at 16 Bath Gardens, Brady Street in the early hours of 1st October 1888, when at about 12.30am he passed No. 253 Whitechapel Road (a laundry business belonging to Mr Christmas) and noticed a knife lying on the bottom of two steps that led to the front door. A bloodstained handkerchief was folded and twisted round the handle and the blade was 9 to 10ins long.
Drage picked up the knife and saw that it was smothered with dried blood and that a blood-stained handkerchief had been tied round the handle with string. On being asked how he came upon the knife, Coram replied that he was looking down when he caught sight of something white. Drage took down his details and the two went, with the knife, to Leman Street Police Station.
Drage was certain the knife had not been there 15 minutes before Coram found it i.e. at 12.15am. Again it was never investigated any further.
So could that be the weapon that killed Liz between 12 midnight and 12.15am?
The main stumbling block to Liz being killed earlier becomes Joseph Lave who said he was in Dutfield’s Lane itself at 12.40am and saw nothing. Yet it was to dark to see anything.
In a statement to the press, he claimed that he had gone into Dutfield's Yard at 12.40am to get a breath of fresh air: "So far as I could see I was out in the street about half an hour, and while I was out nobody came into the yard, nor did I see anybody moving about there in a way to excite my suspicions."
It was so dark in the yard that he had to feel his way along the wall of the club to find his way back in.
It was so dark in the yard that he had to feel his way along the wall of the club to find his way back in.
The point of the post flows onto to Eddowe’s death, it gives JtR much longer time to get to get to Mitre Square. It gives him more time to “write" the infamous graffiti in Coulston Place.
I disregard “time of death” findings as the endless debate on Annie Chapman’s death shows it was an inexact science in that era.
Selective use of facts can “prove” anything of course, for example two witnesses universally disregarded are Isaac Kozebrdsky and Edward Spooner who both independently say it was approximately 12.40am they were at Dutfield’s Lane to see the body.
So exact timing down to exact minutes is extremely perilous and mostly wish fulfilment to support a theory because the limited facts available can be shuffled round to support any theory.
Note all quotes come from the witness segments on this Board.
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