When was Elizabeth Stride actually killed?

[Fisherman]

Any murderer escaping easterly, and intent on murdering again, would surely commit his next murder east of Berner St., not north west.

But regardless of whether if the chased man was Schwartz or Diemschitz/IKozebrodski, he was not the killer in either case, Jon. SO I don´t see what you are getting at here?

Expectations?

The best,
Fisherman

[Sam Flynn]

"Surely"?

When was anything a certainty in the case ...?

The nearest we can get to certainty in this case is that the killer would have been subject to the same constraints of logistics as anyone else.

[harry]

The killer of Stride,would in my opinion,have been concentrating on escape after leaving Dutfield yard,and thoughts of commiting a second murder occurring only when he chanced on Eddowes,and I see no reason why he would be guided by the points of a compass,if having a clear memory of the layout of the vicinity,through habitual use.

[Barnaby]

The killer of Stride,would in my opinion,have been concentrating on escape after leaving Dutfield yard,and thoughts of commiting a second murder occurring only when he chanced on Eddowes,and I see no reason why he would be guided by the points of a compass,if having a clear memory of the layout of the vicinity,through habitual use.

I mostly agree but there is a small chance he planned a double murder to begin with.

Assuming this is not the case, the initial flight certainly was to escape. At what point this turned into looking for another victim is all conjecture. It could have been before he actually encountered Eddowes. But the time window is tight.

[Fisherman]

The nearest we can get to certainty in this case is that the killer would have been subject to the same constraints of logistics as anyone else.

But would he have perceived this the way we do? And would he have acted accordingly - the way we do?

Isn´t it true that if he killed Stride and Eddowes, then he would not have behaved logistically the way we would have expected him to?

I am not saying that our own logic of logistics is uninteresting when looking at the case. But I am very much saying that we should not place the cart before the horse when assessing things.

What the killer did will not adjust to our logic and way of thinking in retrospect. Whether it was governed by thinking that mirrors our own ideas and logic or by thoughts that were very much contrary to our ideas and logic is something that we cannot tell.

All the best,
Fisherman

[Wickerman]

But regardless of whether if the chased man was Schwartz or Diemschitz/IKozebrodski, he was not the killer in either case, Jon. SO I don´t see what you are getting at here?

Expectations?

The best,
Fisherman

Attempting to look at this from the point of view of this unnamed witness.
Standing in Fairclough St., seeing two men running east, apparently in silence (due to the article not saying otherwise), I am pursuing reason's why this witness believed a killer was being chased.

If the press were very soon under the impression the killer had fled N/W, and published their theories to that effect, then the public must have been of the same opinion. So I am wondering why our witness assumed a killer was being chased in the opposite direction, the witness being aware of the second murder N/W of Berner St.

Once again, the reason may be that these two men were not indeed running in silence, but amid shouts of "police", "murder", etc. Ie; indicative of the two men being Diemschitz & Kozebrodski.

[Fisherman]

Attempting to look at this from the point of view of this unnamed witness.
Standing in Fairclough St., seeing two men running east, apparently in silence (due to the article not saying otherwise), I am pursuing reason's why this witness believed a killer was being chased.

If the press were very soon under the impression the killer had fled N/W, and published their theories to that effect, then the public must have been of the same opinion. So I am wondering why our witness assumed a killer was being chased in the opposite direction, the witness being aware of the second murder N/W of Berner St.

Once again, the reason may be that these two men were not indeed running in silence, but amid shouts of "police", "murder", etc. Ie; indicative of the two men being Diemschitz & Kozebrodski.

Well, Jon, if that was the case, then neither the witnesses not the secretary of the club reached the same conclusion! They were of the meaning that it was the killer and a man chasing after him.
However, it would seem that they did not join in the hunt, for some reason. A very good reason would be if the witnesses at that stage had no clue about the Dutfields Yard murder and thus did not couple the chase to murderous activities.
Then, as they found out about the murder, they would perhaps put two and two together.

Not that I can prove such a thing, but I also think that Diemschitz and Kozebrodski were running together, whilst the couple seen running down Fairclough Street at 12.45 would have been one man in the front and another man giving chase. Normally, one can read in the faces of such people what is going on, and Diemschitz/Kozebrodski would have given another impression as far as I can tell (and suggest).

The fact that the article says nothing about any screaming and shouting is of no value at all. They may have shouted and they may not have.

As fot the general direction of the chase, please imagine a lion hunting a gazelle - if the lion takes up the hund by chasing the gazelle towards the East; is that gazelle going to opt for a route towards the west? No it won´t. I don´t think any witness would reflect very much about why the general direction of the chase was towards the East - one tends to see the chaser as the lion, the determined and strong part who decides the direction of the hund, while the chased man is the gazelle.
Once the lion/Pipeman gave up the hunt, the gazelle/presumed killer (although that presumption would have been wrong) would still have lots of time to reach Mitre Square in time for Eddowes.

The best,
Fisherman

[Wickerman]

I think the best solution for the running men to have been Schwartz & Pipeman would be that Pipeman knew nothing of a murder in Dutfields Yard (given his vantage point in Nelsons doorway), but saw an opportunity to take advantage of this fleeing Jew. Perhaps he had mugging on his mind?

Suffice to say, the article is not obvious to interpret. As is often the case, more than one solution is available given the incomplete details we are left with.

[Fisherman]

Wickerman: I think the best solution for the running men to have been Schwartz & Pipeman would be that Pipeman knew nothing of a murder in Dutfields Yard (given his vantage point in Nelsons doorway), but saw an opportunity to take advantage of this fleeing Jew. Perhaps he had mugging on his mind?

Who can tell? We only know that Schwartz was under the impression that he was chased by the man, and no uninformed bystander would be able to guess the precise reason for it.
Which is why I say that there may have been information given afterwards that may have coloured the bystanders wiews.

Suffice to say, the article is not obvious to interpret. As is often the case, more than one solution is available given the incomplete details we are left with.

Solomonic wisdom, Jon. Thanks for the exchange and the offered, very interesting, angle!

The best,
Fisherman

[Sam Flynn]

But would he have perceived this the way we do? And would he have acted accordingly - the way we do?

Pretty much, Fish. I don't buy into this "serial killers are special" line. It gets us nowhere.

[Fisherman]

Pretty much, Fish. I don't buy into this "serial killers are special" line. It gets us nowhere.

Admittedly, shaping a man out of nothing, and equipping him with abilities, feelings, preferences to fit whatever taste will get us somewhere.

Anywhere we choose, in fact.

The best,
Fisherman

[Sam Flynn]

Admittedly, shaping a man out of nothing, and equipping him with abilities, feelings, preferences to fit whatever taste will get us somewhere.

Anywhere we choose, in fact.

...and there's the problem!

[Michael W Richards]

Since there has been comparisons of Pipeman/Schwartz with Diemshitz/Kozebrodski in terms of relationship to the attached streets, I should mention yet again for the thousandth time that Louis did not go out the gates after 1am with Isaac Kozebrodski,...he must have gone with a member named Issacs based on the assumed misspelling. Although I cannot rule out that Louis deliberately lied or simply forgot the facts.

Issac Kozebrodksi stated within an hour of the murder that he left alone, before 1am, at the behest of Louis.

You may assume he got his time wrong as most do, Im not sue why that is since we have his own words on the matter, but nonetheless Louis didn't leave with Issac K, the 17 year old apprentice.

If you happen to be wondering why we didn't hear of Issac K's solo sojourn for help when the members were telling the police who actually went for help, supposedly just Louis and some Issacs person and Eagle, the fact that the timing he provides so blatantly contradicts what Louis stated concerning his arrival time may be a factor.

Cheers

[Bridewell]

Again, let me point out that even if you have access to an accurate watch or clock, you have to be looking at the damn thing to know what time it is. The watch or clock by itself won't help you.

c.d.

That makes the best witnesses, time-wise, Diemschitz (because he records noting the time), Blackwell (same reason) and Smith who would have reason to be mindful of the time on an ongoing basis. I don't see any reason to suppose that the others had any particular reason to be aware of the time, except insomuch as they calculated it retrospectively.

[Bridewell]

If he's correct about the time, then Liz died at or about 12:58 a.m., and her killer was about to finish the job when he heard the sound of Diemschutz's cart approaching.

This raises an interesting thought. Why would the killer expect the cart to turn into Dutfields Yard, rather than passing safely by along Berner Street? If the presumptive 'interrupted killer' reacted in this way, doesn't it suggest that he was more than usually familiar with the comings and goings around the IWMEC?