Which Schwartz interpretation is acurate ?

[caz]

Hi Lynn,

If we allow for two men, BSM and her killer, I'm not sure you can really count the actual murder as a second instance of 'accosting'.

Try to think of it this way. It would have been far, far more common for unaccompanied East End women out late on a Saturday night, to find themselves accosted in some way (and for several likely reasons) than to be knifed to death in cold blood (for no apparent reason).

If you ask what were the chances of any woman being accosted whenever she walked those streets alone, it would be much the same for the tiny few who were murdered as for the vast majority who weren't - fairly high I would have thought.

It's the murder that makes this such an unusual and tragic night out for Stride; not the fact (if we allow it is one) that she was accosted at the entrance to a club after midnight. Her own reaction speaks for itself. She was not unduly alarmed and appears to have stayed put to collect herself before the totally unexpected axe fell. It appears to have been something she would have taken in her stride (sorry). If she was not soliciting, she would still have appreciated that not all men she encountered would make that distinction. To many she was just fair game - a woman out alone and potentially available. Most would leave her be; some would push their luck; others would act aggressively. That was just the way of the world.

I would also put the chances quite high that a man on the prowl for potential victims would see women being accosted on occasion. Stride's killer may even have taken advantage of such a situation, by wading in to the rescue. In that case it would have been no coincidence at all. An opportunist makes his own chances.

Love,

Caz
X

[lynn cates]

twice

Hello MB. Thanks.

"what are the chances of Liz being accosted by two Broad shouldered men of the same height, within minutes of each other?"

Or even be accosted twice--for that matter?

Cheers.
LC

[moonbegger]

Hello MB. On this scenario, why is PM waiting there so long, and AFTER BSM has headed north? And why is PM running from his friend?

Cheers.
LC

Hello Lynn , The outrageous scenario I crafted , was indeed , as Dr John pointed out " Grace Brothers " logic

My main point of contention is simply the "Overcoat kerfuffle"

Do we rule out Height & Build ( Broad shouldered ) as insignificant , because of a coat description , that may well have been misinterpreted ? especially as a man of the same height and build ( Broad shouldered ) was also witnessed with Liz just a few minutes later and only a few yards away .. in a quiet , empty street .. what are the chances of Liz being accosted by two Broad shouldered men of the same height , within minutes of each other ?

cheers , moonbegger .

[Jeff Leahy]

Fanny Mortimer said she was on her doorstep at 36 Berner St between 12.30m to 1 am and never saw anything that Schwartz described.

James Brown saw a couple at approx 12.45am in Fairclough St

Why do these witnesses get ignored and Schwartz treated as gospel?
If they are right, there is no BS man in Berner St, so many theories need revising.

Hi Sudbury

None of Fanny's statement makes sense if you place her at her door at 12.30. However if Fanny comes to her door at 12.50 for 10 minutes everything locks together perfectly with Brown and Blackwell's estimate time of death, baring in mind Stride may not have deid instantly and would have been out of view of Fanny.

Of course we'll probably never no for certain which or if parts of which are correct from the Star report or Swanson's report.

However it might be argued that it seems unlikely Stride would have stayed in the area to be attacked twice given the incident described in both cases.

It therefore seems more logical that Schwartz witnessed Strides attack.

So to turn the problem on its head, pushing the woman into the yard seems a more logical conclusion. Although if Stride fell directly onto the pavement it might be possible for the killer to pull the body into the yard while the two men flee.

You takes your choice I guess. But which ever you take it seems improbable Fanny was at her door at 12.30. The purpose of which was most probably to chat to passers by and she only saw Goldstein who passed around 12.55.

Trust that helps

Yours Jeff

[Dr. John Watson]

Let me throw this scenario out there , just for jolly : What if Browns BSM was actually with PM , who was waiting for him . He eventually talks Liz into a quick visit to the yard across the street .. As he passes his friend (PM) he removes his Overcoat ( not wanting to soil it ) and tells his friend to keep hold of it until he is done his business .. on reaching the yard , Liz has another change of heart , pissed off and walking away towards CR he suddenly remembers his friend has his overcoat .. He turns back down Berner street , and on passing Liz again , his frustrations get the better of him , and all the rest fits together like Egg's & Bacon.

Moon, your scenario reminds me of a trick used by the men's ware salesmen at Grace Brothers: If a customer found a jacket too snug, they simply stretched the seams until they broke and voila - perfect fit!

John

[lynn cates]

friends

Hello MB. On this scenario, why is PM waiting there so long, and AFTER BSM has headed north? And why is PM running from his friend?

Cheers.
LC

[moonbegger]

James Brown also puts Stride on the street at the same time in company with a man who to some degree resembles Pipeman.

Some degree ? Height ( No) Build (No) Coat (yes) .. Do we rule out Height & Build ( Broad shouldered ) as insignificant , because of a coat description , that may well have been misinterpreted ? especially as a man of the same height and build ( Broad shouldered ) was also witnessed with Liz just a few minutes later and only a few yards away .. in a quiet , empty street .. what are the chances of Liz being accosted by two Broad shouldered men of the same height , within minutes of each other ?

Let me throw this scenario out there , just for jolly : What if Browns BSM was actually with PM , who was waiting for him . He eventually talks Liz into a quick visit to the yard across the street .. As he passes his friend (PM) he removes his Overcoat ( not wanting to soil it ) and tells his friend to keep hold of it until he is done his business .. on reaching the yard , Liz has another change of heart , pissed off and walking away towards CR he suddenly remembers his friend has his overcoat .. He turns back down Berner street , and on passing Liz again , his frustrations get the better of him , and all the rest fits together like Egg's & Bacon ..

You know it makes sense Rodney

cheers , moonbegger .

[Cogidubnus]

And the accounts of Mrs Mortimer in the Daily and Evening News show her at the door for a significantly shorter period, thus missing all the action. I'd suggest there were possibly two differing agency feeds...

All the best

Dave

[lynn cates]

Fanny

Hello Sunbury. A problem for Ms. Mortimer is that she seemed to miss a good deal that night.

Reliable?

Cheers.
LC

[Tom_Wescott]

Fanny Mortimer said she was on her doorstep at 36 Berner St between 12.30m to 1 am and never saw anything that Schwartz described.

Hi Sunbury. Actually, she would not have been at her door when Schwartz passed by. But she does note that Berner Street was dead, which actually corroborates that part of Schwartz's story. James Brown also puts Stride on the street at the same time in company with a man who to some degree resembles Pipeman. So none of this evidence is contradictory.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Wickerman]

Why do these witnesses get ignored and Schwartz treated as gospel?

Due to the report by Swanson.

Assuming we did not have this report, the news article by the Star suggesting Schwartz was rejected would be consistent with the fact he did not appear at the Inquest.
Some would argue that this is as good as conclusive proof as you can expect to see.

Which I think demonstrates just how flimsy our theories are when we know so much official paperwork is missing.

[Sunbury]

Why is Schwartz believed over others?

Fanny Mortimer said she was on her doorstep at 36 Berner St between 12.30m to 1 am and never saw anything that Schwartz described.

Resident of 36 Berner Street who made a statement to the press regarding the night of Elizabeth Stride's murder:

I was standing at the door of my house nearly the whole time between half-past twelve and one o'clock this (Sunday) morning, and did not notice anything unusual. I had just gone indoors, and was preparing to go to bed, when I heard a commotion outside, and immediately ran out, thinking that there was another row at the Socialists' Club close by. I went to see what was the matter, and was informed that another dreadful murder had been committed in the yard adjoining the club-house, and on going inside I saw the body of a woman lying huddled up just inside the yard with her throat cut from ear to ear. A man touched her face, and said it was quite warm, so that the deed must have been done while I was standing at the door of my house. There was certainly no noise made, and I did not observe any one enter the gates. It was soon after one o'clock when I went out, and the only man whom I had seen pass through the street previously was a young man carrying a black shiny bag, who walked very fast down the street from the Commercial-road. He looked up at the club, and then went round the corner by the Board School.

James Brown saw a couple at approx 12.45am in Fairclough St

Brown, a dock labourer of 35 Fairclough Street, testified to seeing a woman with a man at 12.45am, 30th September 1888 in Fairclough Street whilst he was getting his supper from a chandler's shop on the corner with Berner Street. He saw the couple standing by the Board School; the woman had her back to the wall, facing the man who had his arm up against it. Brown heard the woman say "No, not tonight, some other night" which attracted his attention. There was no trace of an accent in the woman's voice.

Why do these witnesses get ignored and Schwartz treated as gospel?
If they are right, there is no BS man in Berner St, so many theories need revising.

[lynn cates]

behind his time

Hello Jon. Thanks.

That is correct. In my opinion--and if I may use a local expression--he was "a day late and a dollar short."

Cheers.
LC

[Wickerman]

But I will agree with this, IF Schwartz told the truth, THEN BSM killed Liz.

Ah, but Swanson already assumed Schwartz was being truthful, but he was still not convinced BSM was the killer.

[lynn cates]

speculative

Hello Roy. Thanks.

Yes, quite speculative.

Cheers.
LC