Which Schwartz interpretation is acurate ?

[Damaso Marte]

Jacks MO was always , gain confidence and put his victim at ease . Something I think he was very accomplished at .. The same MO that would charm and reassure Annie into a dark back yard , and lure Kate to the darkest corner of a deserted square at the height of the murders .. Also convince Polly to lead him to a quiet spot .. None of these women were dragged kicking and screaming to the places where they were found murdered .. they were all willing accomplices to their own demise . The killer of these women was always in control of the situation and none of them would have suspected a thing until it was too late . Then we have Liz and her all too public street fight with BSM !

I've always said that either Stride was a Ripper victim, or Schwartz's testimony is legitimate, but not both. This is a good summation of why I hold that view.

Of course, I choose to discount Schwartz rather than discount Stride as a Ripper victim. But if one day Schwartz's account is backed up by something, I will immediately join the Stride-by-another-hand club.

[harry]

I believe Schwartz,like most people of that time,were familiar with persons under the influence,or drunk as they called it.So I would accept his description as applied to BS as being accurate.BS appeared drunk,probably was,and that being so,he might easily have been involved in some altercation with Stride,and not necessarily of his own making.What I cannot easily accept,is that the luring her into the yard,and cutting her throat so efficiently,was the handiwork of a drunk.

[lynn cates]

the path not taken

Hello (again) Caroline. Thanks.

I think ANY scenario is fair game insofar as it provides a framework for research. On the other hand, when the real analysis begins, I like fabrication put far behind. I prefer to look only at the evidence.

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

time saver

Hello Caroline. Thanks.

If my understatement is disliked, very well--deserted.

Could Liz have been accosted? Sure. Did she die in a face to face fracas? No. Body position tells us that.

"If PM had waited patiently for Schwartz to walk off out of sight before dealing with BSM, another three Schwartzs could have come along in the meanwhile."

As well they might whilst he ran behind Schwartz. if fact, waiting on Israel to vanish would have SAVED time in the long run.

Cheers.
LC

[caz]

An extra man is a fabrication.

But it's not a fabrication to seek to introduce extra men for these murders, when the ripper can't be ruled out - or proved a fabrication in his own right?

But if Schwartz did see the ripper, then BSM is he. But BSM clearly did no ripping.

And there are dozens of plausible explanations for no ripping on this occasion without the need to fabricate extra murderers for whom there is no actual evidence.

Love,

Caz
X

[caz]

Testimony made Berner look a bit deserted. Perhaps the testimonies were false?

Hi Lynn,

What does 'a bit' deserted mean? It was either deserted or it wasn't. But the club certainly wasn't deserted, meaning that the attendees would have been coming or going at intervals, and presumably availing themselves of the outside lavs too. And it was the club where we know Stride was when she was accosted then murdered - or just murdered, for those who reject Schwartz's tale outright.

But Schwartz or no Schwartz, why doubt she could easily have been accosted in that situation, especially if club members were afterwards keen to deny any suggestion that prostitutes used their premises. The suggestion was only made because this was thought to be 'another' prostitute murder, so it's not unreasonable to suppose that any woman thought to be taking advantage of the club in this way might have been 'encouraged' to bugger off out of it.

"If he was the killer he could have seen his opportunity when BSM manhandled Stride, but had to make sure Schwartz was spooked before sending BSM packing and going in for the kill himself."

But Israel did not even linger. He was leaving the scene of action. Why not just hold your ground and wait a few more seconds?

Well he was walking away from it, but only started running when he thought PM might be chasing after him. And time would have been an issue. If PM had waited patiently for Schwartz to walk off out of sight before dealing with BSM, another three Schwartzs could have come along in the meanwhile. His aim would have been to entice Stride into the yard before any more passers-by could queer his pitch.

Love,

Caz
X

[Jeff Leahy]

Hello Jeff , Thanks again.

which by definition, would allow for a very eventful couple of minutes at the very least . Plus it still ties together With Schwartz 12.45 , especially as Liz is not as of yet at her position outside the club where Schwartz will witness her .. The loose two minutes that Brown almost good as swears by is more than enough time for the scenario to play out .

Hi Moonbegger

Being one of those sad ripperologists whose dragged is poor unwilling partner to the location and paced it out via mobile phone. (i'm still in her bad books)

If Brown continues his course at speed to eat his lunch. Then by the time he's letting himself into his front door the incident at Dutchfeild yard is some way behind him and completely out of his POV.

Once he past the couple he describes he would have to make a 180 turn to see what happened and his POV would be down Fairclough street with no view of Dutfeild Yard or Fanny Mortimer.

I thank you for your chilling insight into the world of Schizophrenia Jeff , although I must admit I am not convinced Jack was part of that club .. Liz's killer on the other hand may well have been .

Jacks MO was always , gain confidence and put his victim at ease . Something I think he was very accomplished at .. The same MO that would charm and reassure Annie into a dark back yard , and lure Kate to the darkest corner of a deserted square at the height of the murders .. Also convince Polly to lead him to a quiet spot .. None of these women were dragged kicking and screaming to the places where they were found murdered .. they were all willing accomplices to their own demise . The killer of these women was always in control of the situation and none of them would have suspected a thing until it was too late . Then we have Liz and her all too public street fight with BSM !

cheers moonbegger

I guess were running off topic here so I hope people dont mind me making a comment. I'm happy to take to another thread if it does.

But I'm not certain Jack has to be a charmer. Indeed he might appear more suspicious if he was. Wouldn't a cassual "Fancy a quick one" 'Yea alright price of a doss" "OK' "follow me" sort of conversation appear less strange?

Also the other attacks attributed to Jack the Ripper all show quite different MO's. A fashionable recent arguement being made that they were all the result of different people. Actually I see no evidence that serial killers don't change there MO's considerably. Especially opportune serial killers, whose crimes have many variables.

Smith- had an object pushed into her.
Tabram-frenzied knife attack
Nichols-TAken by surprise attacked from the from the front
Chapman-Taken by surprise attacked from the front

Both as you say took the killer to a quite place but we have no witnesses to the level of conversation...(perhaps Harriot Lilly and Mrs Long)

STRiDE - Throat cut attacked from behind
Eddows - Spoke to victim-took secluded spot-taken by surprise attacked from Behind (Possibly)
Kelly- Taken by surprise in her room, but proably led her killer there-attacked front through sheets.
Mylett - ? garrot might be a victim?
McKenzie - Attack (Not sure)
Coles - Possible random attack similar to Stride.

So a lot of variation. But all the attacks when they happened were forceful and violent. I've often wondered about that strange phraze in Swansons report 'She screamed three times but not vary loudly" doesnt it strike you as odd. What does that mean? Can someone scream 'Not vary loudly' or is this just someone struggling with translation? Someone trying to describe a Scream being muffled?

But just to continue the problems I'm also not certain that schizophrenics cant be perfectly charming and co-herent. Psychosis is something we still know very little about. Ronnie Kray for instance was a dyagnosed schizophrenic and I gather could have moments of being vary charming.

Then there are levels of Psycopathy, check this out
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/culture/b...-spot-one.html

I'm following the Victor Patorious trial on TV at present. How many Olympic athletes would score vary high as 'Psychopaths'?

A number of serial killers including Brady have been dyagnosed as schizophrenics but they clear rate very high on the psychopath scale So the picture is far more blurred today than it has ever been.

I'd like to think its the one area, given better technology, that our understanding in the area of ripperology will improve the most over the next twenty years.

Anyway many thanks for your thought provoking comments. I am away for a few days so if i don't reply please don't think me rude.

Many thanks Jeff

[harry]

No doubt the killings,including Stride,were sudden,swift,accurate,and performed with intent,and it can be argued the killer"s state of mind,but to me it appears from the time the killer set out,his intention was to seek victims,and on several occasions he did so.

[moonbegger]

Hello Jeff , Thanks again.

So i argue stick basically to the timings given.

What you argue is of course possible. Stride with BSM...he walks up the street.. Schwartz timing is out.. It could happen.

I simply argue its not necessary, as the account works perfectly well without creating an aside to the known timings.

The thing is Jeff , I am not necessarily creating an "aside to the known timings" . Even if we allow Schwartz to be bang on the money with his 12.45 and put Brown at his estimation of about quarter to 1 , which by definition, would allow for a very eventful couple of minutes at the very least . Plus it still ties together With Schwartz 12.45 , especially as Liz is not as of yet at her position outside the club where Schwartz will witness her .. The loose two minutes that Brown almost good as swears by is more than enough time for the scenario to play out .

Why does a stranger stop speak to another stranger and suddenly attack and kill them without reason?

Hear I think greater understanding of schizophrenia is required.

I thank you for your chilling insight into the world of Schizophrenia Jeff , although I must admit I am not convinced Jack was part of that club .. Liz's killer on the other hand may well have been .

Jacks MO was always , gain confidence and put his victim at ease . Something I think he was very accomplished at .. The same MO that would charm and reassure Annie into a dark back yard , and lure Kate to the darkest corner of a deserted square at the height of the murders .. Also convince Polly to lead him to a quiet spot .. None of these women were dragged kicking and screaming to the places where they were found murdered .. they were all willing accomplices to their own demise . The killer of these women was always in control of the situation and none of them would have suspected a thing until it was too late . Then we have Liz and her all too public street fight with BSM !

cheers

moonbegger

[lynn cates]

waiting

Hello John. Thanks.

His description seems vague enough--more people than he carried black bags. So IF he were guilty, he might have sat tight and waited.

Cheers.
LC

[Jeff Leahy]

Hello Jeff ,

We know the shop was situated on the corner Jeff , across Fairclough , opposite the Nelson pub , leaving the shop , Berners st would have stretched out in front ( slightly to the left ) of Brown's POV . although I do agree its hardly unlikely Brown would have paid any attention towards Berners st as he crossed fairclough, and past the couple . Also we must remember 12.45 is by Browns own admission an estimate .

Very good point Jeff , and almost checkmate , but we know factually that Brown estimated his time as "About quarter to 1" , leaving a small albeit highly probable window of opportunity , especially when allowing into the equation a slight flexibility regarding the actual time itself . for example if Brown was a mere two minutes off ( 12.43) and Schwartz just a minute off the other way (12.46) This gives us a window of three minutes to play with , not that three minutes is even the time that would have been needed for my scenario to play out .. A maximum of Two mins is roughly the amount of time it would have taken for Liz & Co to casually walk to the yard , and for BSM to get midway up the street before turning back .. which still gives us an extra minute in which to tighten up the timing even more .

Whilst I agree with you Jeff , insomuch as it becomes detrimental to the to case to introduce too much flexibility to the timings , I also see it as equally detrimental to allow none at all .

Yes of course it does Jeff , but as you correctly point out , it is just a possibility . There also remains the unacceptable possibility, that as Schwartz turns the corner on his way down Berners , he notices BSM "some distance off " who has just turned around and is readying himself to reap revenge on the Harlot who just lead him on .

And one final point Jeff .. what would induce two strangers to strike up an instantly hostile confrontation, if there was nothing that went before to lead up to it ?

cheers moonbegger

Hi Moonbegger on the pionts you raise I don't disagree. Its perfectly acceptable to argue timings can be out. They probably were.

Its just impossible to know whose or why.. Its just impossible to know.

So i argue stick basically to the timings given.

What you argue is of course possible. Stride with BSM...he walks up the street.. Schwartz timing is out.. It could happen.

I simply argue its not necessary, as the account works perfectly well without creating an aside to the known timings.

But on your last point I think you make a statement that should be answered.

Why does a stranger stop speak to another stranger and suddenly attack and kill them without reason?

Hear I think greater understanding of schizophrenia is required.

Psychotic attacks are without explanation but there are well recorded incidents of such attacks. Its a phenomina today I would argue that is more akin to Spree killings. Multiple random attacks cause large loss of life.

But in 1888, the world was different. I believe a spree killer could operate under certain conditions for several weeks undetected.

And an 19th Century Spree killing explains more rasionally the murders attributed to Jack the Ripper.

This kind of sudden, unexplained attack looked at the other victims and how savie street women were over powder without putting up a fight?

I've always felt the answer lays in Berner Street, the sudden attack...unexplained. I believe Jack was an opportunist, psychotic killer, who killed without reason. He was deeply and psycologically disturbed. Somewhere on the schizophrenic spectrum (Could include bi-polar)

Add to this he was 'high' on the psycopathic sale and had a deeply disturbed childhood. A pathological hatred of women for some reason.

Yours Jeff

[DRoy]

And one final point that leaps back to the original topic of the thread , which was who had the best , accurate interpreter , Police or Press ?

The fact that the police interpreter claimed wrongly it was Commercial Street .. whereas the Press had it right with Commercial road
A small somewhat insignificant fact but a telling one .

Moonbegger,

Actually I think it shows that the pressman knew it was road and so corrected the statement on behalf of the witness...suggesting once again that they didn't even interview Schwartz and got this from the police.

Cheers
DRoy

[moonbegger]

Hello Jeff ,

As Brown left the shop at 12.45, Schwartz turned into Berner street.

Browns POV was looking straight ahead at the couple in Fairclough street not to the left back up Berner street so its unlikely he would have seen Schwartz turning the corner. He would only have a view time of about 5-6 seconds. Its unlikely Schwartz would notice someone crossing the Fairclough street cross road.

We know the shop was situated on the corner Jeff , across Fairclough , opposite the Nelson pub , leaving the shop , Berners st would have stretched out in front ( slightly to the left ) of Brown's POV . although I do agree its hardly unlikely Brown would have paid any attention towards Berners st as he crossed fairclough, and past the couple . Also we must remember 12.45 is by Browns own admission an estimate .

But I don't believe their is enough time in the 'known' time frame for the man to walk up Berner street stop, turn around and go back while Schwartz is on his known course and speed.

Very good point Jeff , and almost checkmate , but we know factually that Brown estimated his time as "About quarter to 1" , leaving a small albeit highly probable window of opportunity , especially when allowing into the equation a slight flexibility regarding the actual time itself . for example if Brown was a mere two minutes off ( 12.43) and Schwartz just a minute off the other way (12.46) This gives us a window of three minutes to play with , not that three minutes is even the time that would have been needed for my scenario to play out .. A maximum of Two mins is roughly the amount of time it would have taken for Liz & Co to casually walk to the yard , and for BSM to get midway up the street before turning back .. which still gives us an extra minute in which to tighten up the timing even more .

Of course you can speculate that the timings given were out. Its cedible to move timings five minutes either way, but as soon as you start doing this you create all sots of extra problems, so i find it easier to stick to the times given.

Whilst I agree with you Jeff , insomuch as it becomes detrimental to the to case to introduce too much flexibility to the timings , I also see it as equally detrimental to allow none at all .

This leaves the possibility that Stride might have said 'Not tonight some other night' crossed the road to Dutfield yard and met BSM coming down the road, at the entrance.

Yes of course it does Jeff , but as you correctly point out , it is just a possibility . There also remains the unacceptable possibility, that as Schwartz turns the corner on his way down Berners , he notices BSM "some distance off " who has just turned around and is readying himself to reap revenge on the Harlot who just lead him on .

And one final point Jeff .. what would induce two strangers to strike up an instantly hostile confrontation, if there was nothing that went before to lead up to it ?

cheers

moonbegger

[Dr. John Watson]

Hello John. Does not Goldstein strike you as extremely obliging for a bona fide suspect?

Cheers.
LC

Hi Lynn. If Goldstein was the killer, having read that he was spotted at the scene of the crime and fearing others might recognize him from the description, wouldn't it be smart to immediately contact police, identify himself, and give a reasonable explanation for his presence in the area, thereby eliminating any need for further investigation? Of course I don't consider Goldstein a bona fide Ripper suspect, but he's certainly more suited for the designation than many others identified in the past as legitimate suspects! I might add that Swanson's summary of Goldstein's statement concentrates solely on his identifying himself as the man with the black bag, with nothing to indicate whether he volunteered any additional information about what he saw or heard - or whether he was even asked. Surely if his time estimate is correct, Goldstein likely found himself at or near the scene where the murder took place, at about the time of the murder. That certainly would raise suspicion in my mind that he did not tell police all he knew.

John

[Observer]

Hi Jeff, gret post, particulrly this section.

"Browns POV was looking straight ahead at the couple in Fairclough street not to the left back up Berner street so its unlikely he would have seen Schwartz turning the corner. He would only have a view time of about 5-6 seconds."

I'm pleased you pointed out the fact that when dealing with certain witnesses it's important to take stock that we re dealing with very small packets of time. Certain posters to this forum seem to think that the inhabitants of Late Victorian London passed along the streets somewhat slower than the average snail.

They also believe that each witness was equipped with an atomic wristwatch.

Thus, this witness, or that witness, could not possibly have been in that place at that time because this witness was also in that place at that time and they did not observe said witness.

Pissing against the wind is the term they use for such nonsense I believe. Apparently it's a good tactic to use when faced with the complexities of the Jack The Ripper series of murders.

Best regards

Observer