Which Schwartz interpretation is acurate ?

[caz]

Send three and fourpence, we're going to a dance

...Abberline's failure to grasp what Schwartz was saying about "Lipski" sounds like an impatient cop frustrated with a hard to understand interpreter. My opinion of Abberline's skill as an interviewer has slipped a notch.

Hold on John. Surely it was just a matter of Schwartz being uncertain whether "Lipski" was directed at himself or Pipeman. If he had no way of telling, Abberline had no way of getting to the bottom of it. Simple as.

Hello MB. Thanks.

"Not his missus, Lynn, BSM's missus."

Are you seriously suggesting that BSM was married to Liz? A secret union perhaps? And so he accidentally ran across her in Berner?

I think MB only meant the perception that a domestic was being witnessed - a ding-dong between BSM and his missus.

Love,

Caz
X

[moonbegger]

Hello MB. Thanks.

"According to Schwartz's press statement he was."

You mean BSM shouting at PM?
LC

No Lynn , PM ( in the doorway ) shouting at BSM ( man with the woman )

just as he stepped from the kerb a second man came out of the doorway of the public-house a few doors off, and shouting out some sort of warning to the man who was with the woman,

How does that propose BSM shouting at PM ???

Caz ,

I think MB only meant the perception that a domestic was being witnessed - a ding-dong between BSM and his missus.

Thanks Caz , that's exactly what I meant ..

cheers , moonbegger .

[Dr. John Watson]

Hello John. Thanks.

"Mention of doubt in the Star doesn't really mean much if police records suggest just the opposite."

Entirely agree. Do you, perhaps, have access to the original interview at Lehman and the dictum which ostensibly precipitated the story in "The Star"? I'd love to see it.

If only . . . .

"And Abberline's failure to grasp what Schwartz was saying about "Lipski" sounds like an impatient cop frustrated with a hard to understand interpreter."

Abberline clearly stated that he had questioned Schwartz closely on the point--to no avail.

What Abberline actually wrote in his official report was that Schwartz was "unable to say" to whom the oath ("Lipski") was directed, himself or the man assaulting Stride. Apparently the Star reporter had greater success with his interpreter. In the Star account, Schwartz says nothing about "Lipski" but does state that the man with the knife shouted out "some sort of warning" to the man assaulting Stride.

"My opinion of Abberline's skill as an interviewer has slipped a notch."

Indeed? Have you read FGA's note, pp. 126 & 7 "Ultimate"?

Unfortunately, I don't have a copy of that excellent book; perhaps you'd be kind enough to share that note with me?

John

[lynn cates]

chance meeting

Hello Caroline. Thanks.

I've never been able to see BSM in a relationship with Liz. How rare would such a chance meeting be?

Cheers.
LC

[moonbegger]

What Abberline actually wrote in his official report was that Schwartz was "unable to say" to whom the oath ("Lipski") was directed, himself or the man assaulting Stride. Apparently the Star reporter had greater success with his interpreter. In the Star account, Schwartz says nothing about "Lipski" but does state that the man with the knife shouted out "some sort of warning" to the man assaulting Stride.

John

Hello Dr John , If this Is correct then surely Warren made a huge mistake when forwarding his account .. Warren would have us believe that the man who threw the woman down called out , and not the Pipe man in the doorway ?

The man who threw the woman down called out, apparently to the man on the oppos- ite side of the road, 'Lipski',

It is the press account that has Pipe man calling out , just like you say Abberline wrote in his official report ?? is this correct ?

Cheers , Moonbegger

[lynn cates]

You can trust Swanson.

Hello MB. Thanks.

That is from "The Star"?

Quoting apparently from Abberline's interrogation, Swanson said, "The man who threw the woman down called out apparently to the man on the opposite side of the road 'Lipski'. . . . "

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

report

Hello John. Thanks.

You seem to be quoting from that report.

Cheers.
LC

[Dr. John Watson]

With respect to the witness Israel Schwartz and his non-appearance at the Stride inquest, here's what acknowledged experts Steward Evans and Donald Rumbelow had to say on the subject in Jack the Ripper, Scotland Yard Investigates, Sutton Publishing, 2006:

"Schwartz was, in fact, the most important witness if his statement* was honest and accurate. His version of events also indicated the possibility that two men were involved in the murder of Stride." [*The authors do not specify which of Schwartz's statements they're referring to, but the two retired police officers clearly favor the police version as the most accurate.]

Noting that Schwartz was not called upon to testify at the inquest, the authors say this in a footnote:

"Schwartz probably did not appear at the inquest because he spoke hardly any English and required an interpreter. The coroner had the authority to accept written statements in lieu of a witness actually appearing."

If Wynne Baxter was aware of Schwartz and if he was supplied with a copy of Schwartz's police statement, he gave no clue to this in his published findings, nor did he refer to any information unique to Schwartz's statement.

John

[moonbegger]

Hello MB. Thanks.

That is from "The Star"?

Quoting apparently from Abberline's interrogation, Swanson said, "The man who threw the woman down called out apparently to the man on the opposite side of the road 'Lipski'. . . . "
LC

Opposite side of the road from Schwartz !!! Positioning PM correctly on the opposite side of the road , The same side of the road as Liz & her assailant, The same side that Schwartz press statement puts pipe/knife man .. But what is interesting , if Dr J is quoting Abberline's report correctly , is who said what ? Did Abberline confirm the press statement that PM called out , Authenticating the Press statement , and exposing Warrens report as a mistake ? Any takers ?

moonbegger

[Cogidubnus]

Opposite side of the road from Schwartz !!! Positioning PM correctly on the opposite side of the road , The same side of the road as Liz & her assailant, The same side that Schwartz press statement puts pipe/knife man ..

Hi MB

I must admit I always envisaged Schwartz as being on the right (Dutfields) side of the road, crossing diagonally near Dutfields towards the opposite side, and then seeing Pipeman on that same side of Berners he just reached ie the opposite side to Dutfields...implying that whoever called out to whom, they called across the road...

Some ambiguity arises, however, because this takes place by a corner of a crossroads between Berners and Fairclough...so when "opposite" side is mentioned, does it mean the opposite side of Berners to that which he started from, the opposite side of Berners to that which he's just reached, or perhaps the same side of Berners he's just reached but on the opposite side of Fairclough Street...

All the best

Dave

[lynn cates]

honest

Hello John. Thanks for posting that.

SPE should be lauded for including the caveat about honesty.

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

west

Hello MB. Thanks.

Abberline seems to understand--as I do--that BSM and Liz were on the west side of Berner, as was Schwartz and PM. Schwartz, to avoid the fracas, moved east across Berner. Then he caught sight of PM, also west but across Fairclough.

If the story is true. . .

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

Nelson

Hello Dave. I think the Nelson was also on the west of Berner.

Cheers.
LC

[DRoy]

Hi everyone,

- The newspaper version is not quoted for a reason.
- Schwartz is only named the Hungarian in the newspaper version...why not name your source?
- The police version didn't have Schwartz's description of Stride in it. It is only after giving his statement to the police and after seeing her body that he states that it is the same woman he saw being assulted. The newspaper version doesn't have a description either from Schwartz...why not? He at this time could have described her exactly as he saw her in the mortuary since this discussion took place after the police version was taken.

It would be my suggestion that someone from the police station gave a garbled version to the reporter. I'm not going to get in to guessing games as to whom it could have been but it seems like a story that's been passed down the line a couple times. In my opinion there was no reporter that managed to chase down Schwartz.

For the record, even the Star version states "The truth of the man's statement is not wholly accepted."

This bring up another interesting point. How much did Swanson actually believe Schwartz? Plus, if Abbeline is the one who suggested that Schwartz may not have witnessed the murder taking place because of the time discrepancy, how much value did he really put in Schwartz?

We may be able to tell a little bit by Swanson's summary and how he doesn't use Stride's name in the summary from Schwartz. He uses 'woman' instead of Stride but why? If Schwartz identified the body as the person he saw being assulted as Stride, why doesn't Swanson use her name?

To me it makes it sound as if Swanson (through Abberline) didn't necessarily believe that Schwartz saw Stride being assulted but that due to him seeing an assult on a woman he still may be able to provide something of value (like maybe PM and or BS killed Stride minutes later). Makes perfect logical sense, and fits within the evidence in every way.

Cheers
DRoy

[moonbegger]

This is how I read it Dave .. Both of these reports are from Schwartz perspective .. He is on the opposite side of the road (opposite Dutfields) when he first notices PM stood in the doorway of the corner pub ( pipe man would have been hidden from view when he was on his original side [the right] )

The man who threw the woman down called out, apparently to the man on the oppos- ite side of the road, 'Lipski',

At this point , Schwartz is saying " the man who threw the woman down called out to the man on the opposite side of the road from me " . Schwarz was on one side of the road , and the person ( in fact Both men & Liz were all on the other side of the road ) from him .

but just as he stepped from the kerb a second man came out of the doorway of the public-house a few doors off, and shouting out some sort of warning to the man who was with the woman,

Once again , Schwartz perspective , and apart from , Who said what , All the players are in the same position , just worded slightly different .

Cheers , moonbegger .