Which Schwartz interpretation is acurate ?

[c.d.]

I have never understood why Schwartz's veracity has to be an all or nothing proposition. In other words, he was lying or completely telling the truth. Given the fact that he came in in the middle of the movie and stayed only a minute or two and didn't understand the dialogue and complicated matters by giving his statement through an interpreter, I think the best approach is to simply take his statement as true but with a grain (or several) of salt.

Just my take on it.

c.d.

[Paddy]

Pipeman

I think Pipeman was a copper undercover.....There was something written that mentioned two undercover policeman watching an alleyway. If I am right one said he had just stepped out of a house and the man stepped out of the alleyway. He said he tried to talk to the man but he disappeared.
Pipeman could have heard Liz or was just going to walk past the club.
The running Israel heard could have been Jack fleeing.
Wasnt the chap in charge who interviewed Packer the same man who's memoire mentioned the alley? Was it Smith or White? Sorry my memory is not so good for names !


Just a theory.....
Pat..................................

.

[Cogidubnus]

Oh Pat what a beautiful and provocative thought...but would an undercover cop charged with helping to crack the JTR case really go chasing off after a possible witness, rather than stay with the possible perpetrator and victim?

Mind you, if he did so utterly muff it, could the potential embarassment value explain why the Schwartz evidence, (barring the abberant Star account), was so ruthlessly publically suppressed?

All the best

Dave

[GUT]

G'day Paddy

If he was a police officer why, oh why would he give an interview to the newspapers.

[Paddy]

Who chased who ?

Hi Dave,
I didn't say the undercover cop chased Jack away, I said that Jack ran down the street not actually after Schwartz, but to escape the man who had just tried to talk to him and who would shortly discover poor Liz.

It was White not Smith who lead the street search, just looked it up.

I just cant help thinking this was one of the many circumstances that connected Kosminski...Along with Packers "he lives around here" and Mrs Kuers bloody laundry client. Fanciful I know but it fits so well !

Plus nobody ever mentioned Pipeman.. that is so odd. Surely the press would have been straight onto that? Its so likely that the club was being watched and that could not become public knowledge !

Just found out my friends' (from Birmingham) relative lived just round corner in Boyd street, what a small world it is. (Loads of your lot too)

Pat............................

[harry]

I would agree that 'Pipeman' should be considered more closely.I cannot understand that waving a pipe would be, in any way,an effective deterent in scaring off anyone,and Schwartz appeared to have been as scared of this person,as he was of getting involved with BS.

[Cogidubnus]

If he was a police officer why, oh why would he give an interview to the newspapers.

Pipeman didn't

All the best

Dave

[Paddy]

Why oh Why ?

Hi GUT,

It was White who wrote about it and pipeman could have been one of the cops he mentions. It was also White that lead the street inquiry and questioned Packer.

Soon after White's death an article appeared in the "People's Journal" relating to the Whitechapel murders. It was written in the first person and tells how White and two other men had for five nights "been watching a certain alley just behind the Whitechapel Road. It could only be entered from where we had two men posted in hiding. . ."

White had come to hear the two officers latest report and "I was turning away when I saw a man coming out of the alley. He was walking quickly..." White got a good look at the man and tried to engage him in conversation without much success. As the man walked away "one of the police officers came out of the house he had been in, and walked a few paces into the darkness of the alley. 'Hello! What is this?' he cried..." The police officer had discovered "a body of a woman, and a pool of blood was streaming along the gutter from her body". White tried to catch up with the man he had seen "but he was lost to sight in the dark labyrinth of the East End mean streets."

It is just a theory so I would value some imput for and against...

Pat....................................

[GUT]

Mea Culpa

You wrote Pipeman, I read Schwartz.

[Cogidubnus]

another proofless possibility

I didn't say the undercover cop chased Jack away, I said that Jack ran down the street not actually after Schwartz, but to escape the man who had just tried to talk to him and who would shortly discover poor Liz.

It was White not Smith who lead the street search, just looked it up.

I just cant help thinking this was one of the many circumstances that connected Kosminski...Along with Packers "he lives around here" and Mrs Kuers bloody laundry client. Fanciful I know but it fits so well !

Plus nobody ever mentioned Pipeman.. that is so odd. Surely the press would have been straight onto that? Its so likely that the club was being watched and that could not become public knowledge !

Just found out my friends' (from Birmingham) relative lived just round corner in Boyd street, what a small world it is. (Loads of your lot too)

Hi Pat

I wasn't implying that the undercover cop chased Jack away...rather that he'd mistakenly chased the genuine witness away leaving the killer with his victim, hence the subsequent hush-up...

Like you though I'm pretty sure the club was watched!

Cheers

Dave

[Paddy]

Only Problem

Thanks Dave sorry yes I understand now. That would fit....

I too think it would have been watched. Probably why nobody can find many police records is that some evidence would expose surveillance.........all very secret squirrel.
Sent for some more files but not holding my breath as I am sure everything has been searched...

Pat...............................

[Paddy]

There would have been a lot of people about though ??

[harry]

The police statement reports that Schartz saw the second man(pipeman) standing lighting a pipe.doesn't say specificly where he (pipeman) was standing.I have two things to say about that.
Firstly,when a man lights a pipe,on a dimly lit street,in inclement weather conditions,he would,in those times,use a match,and both hands to shield the flame and bowl of the pipe,thus causing the face to be obscured.Yet S chwartz describes,the above shoulders in detail.
Secondly,there is such a difference in a man standing lighting a pipe,as opposed to a man coming out of the shadows with a knife in his hand,that I fail to see how anyone ,in a matter of days,could be so confused as to which was correct.

[Dr. John Watson]

Hi GUT,

It was White who wrote about it and pipeman could have been one of the cops he mentions. It was also White that lead the street inquiry and questioned Packer.

Soon after White's death an article appeared in the "People's Journal" relating to the Whitechapel murders. It was written in the first person and tells how White and two other men had for five nights "been watching a certain alley just behind the Whitechapel Road. It could only be entered from where we had two men posted in hiding. . ."

White had come to hear the two officers latest report and "I was turning away when I saw a man coming out of the alley. He was walking quickly..." White got a good look at the man and tried to engage him in conversation without much success. As the man walked away "one of the police officers came out of the house he had been in, and walked a few paces into the darkness of the alley. 'Hello! What is this?' he cried..." The police officer had discovered "a body of a woman, and a pool of blood was streaming along the gutter from her body". White tried to catch up with the man he had seen "but he was lost to sight in the dark labyrinth of the East End mean streets."

It is just a theory so I would value some imput for and against...

Pat....................................

If I'm not mistaken, that was the case of "Clay Pipe" Alice McKenzie, who was found dead in Castle Alley after midnight, July 18, 1889. She had been stabbed in the throat and slashed zig-zag fashion along the length of the abdomen. The Alley had been patrolled regularly, and it was the beat officer who discovered her body. He summoned several other PCs in the immediate area, none of whom was named White. Coroner Wynne Baxter conducted her inquest. The officer who discovered the body was PC Walter Andrews, and the discovery came just after Andrews had given his report to Sgt. Edward Badham. Although Sgt. White's name is not mentioned in police or news reports, it's possible he could have been in the area at the time of the murder as he states. His description of the crime scene certainly fits Castle Alley, and if his story is accurate, the man he encountered on the street was very likely McKenzie's killer - and possibly even Jack the Ripper!

John

[lynn cates]

"When I have fears . . ."

Hello Pat. Not sure why there should NOT be only a little interest in PM. After all, if Schwartz is to be believed, PM looks like an innocent bystander who had the same fears as Schwartz.

Cheers.
LC