Which Schwartz interpretation is acurate ?

[Michael W Richards]

From Swansons notes...."12.45 a.m. 30th. Israel Schwartz of 22 Helen Street, Backchurch Lane, stated that at this hour, on turning into Berner Street from Commercial Street and having got as far as the gateway where the murder was committed, he saw a man stop and speak to a woman, who was standing in the gateway. The man tried to pull the woman into the street, but he turned her round and threw her down on the footway and the woman screamed three times, but not loudly. On crossing to the opposite side of the street, he saw a second man standing lighting his pipe. The man who threw the woman down called out, apparently to the man on the opposite side of the road, 'Lipski', and then Schwartz walked away, but finding that he was followed by the second man, he ran so far as the railway arch, but the man did not follow so far."

It seems Israel told Swanson, via interpreter, that Pipeman was across the street from where Liz and BSM were.

Cheers

[moonbegger]

Hello Lynn ,

It was not raining.

It was earlier ! and we have no idea how long PM was stood there ..

stops to light his pipe in the shelter of a doorway of a closed pub. after doing so, and shouting some abuse at a bully beating on his missus, . . ."

1, PM was not shouting ANYTHING.

According to Schwartz press statement he was

a second man came out of the doorway of the public-house a few doors off, and shouting out some sort of warning to the man who was with the woman,

And this ..

2. His missus? Why is she two doors down and he is loitering at the pub?

Not his missus Lynn BSM's missus

If Schwartz is to be believed, he is running away from BSM--just like Israel.

Not sure where you get from lynn ???

moonbegger

[moonbegger]

From Swansons notes...."12.45 a.m. 30th. Israel Schwartz of 22 Helen Street, Backchurch Lane, stated that at this hour, on turning into Berner Street from Commercial Street and having got as far as the gateway where the murder was committed, he saw a man stop and speak to a woman, who was standing in the gateway. The man tried to pull the woman into the street, but he turned her round and threw her down on the footway and the woman screamed three times, but not loudly. On crossing to the opposite side of the street, he saw a second man standing lighting his pipe. The man who threw the woman down called out, apparently to the man on the opposite side of the road, 'Lipski', and then Schwartz walked away, but finding that he was followed by the second man, he ran so far as the railway arch, but the man did not follow so far."

It seems Israel told Swanson, via interpreter, that Pipeman was across the street from where Liz and BSM were.

Cheers

Hello Mike , I read that as from Shwartz perspective .. Once he had crossed the street .. The person that was being called to by the assailant was indeed on the other side of the street .. putting pipe man on the same side as Liz and assailant .

cheers , moonbegger

[moonbegger]

Once Schwartz crosses the street ( right to left ) he gets a better view of the right side of the street .. seeing PM standing in the doorway of the pub a few doors down from the assault , on the same side .. Once Schwartz is on the left hand side of the street and passing , he hears a cry and steps back .. the attacker calls to the man on the other side of the street ( in fact, at this moment , both men , & Liz are on the other side of street from Schwartz ) .

moonbegger .

[harry]

Now 'Pipeman' is well within hearing and sight of what was going on at the entrance to the yard,but refrains from taking any part,instead he calmly stands and lights his pipe.That is, until Schwartz is almost on a level to him.He then makes a move which Schwartz senses is a danger to him(Schwartz),follows after Schwartz for a short distance,and that's it.If 'Pipeman'himself was scared,why didn't he precede Schwarts in fleeing the scene?

[Dr. John Watson]

What missing "Witness" files?

Hi Scott. I was referring to the Scotland Yard file titled "Suspects" from which hundreds of records "went missing" sometime in the 1980's, I believe. The file envelope[s] contained reports on individuals suspected of being the Ripper. It is known to have contained material on Kosminski, Druitt, Ostrog, Donston Stephenson, and likely many others like Tumblety perhaps. Also missing is a batch of reports listing all persons detained in connection with the murders since October 31, 1888. My guess is that a retired police official or perhaps an early researcher with connections obtained the file and then returned it minus the missing documents. Same thing happened with the original "Jack the Ripper" letter and photos of the victims, both of which were purloined but eventually returned to the Yard.

John

[Dr. John Watson]

Hello (again) John. Actually, the doubts at Lehman st (Swanson did not doubt) were recorded in "The Star."

Abberline could not get Schwartz to say whom was the recipient of "Lipski."

Cheers.
LC

Mention of doubt in the Star doesn't really mean much if police records suggest just the opposite. And Abberline's failure to grasp what Schwartz was saying about "Lipski" sounds like an impatient cop frustrated with a hard to understand interpreter. My opinion of Abberline's skill as an interviewer has slipped a notch.

John

[Paddy]

Lipski

There was in fact a Lipski family living in Mile-End New Town at that time.
Lewis Lipski (born 1862 Poland) was a tailor and lived with wife Sarah. Their oldest of three young children was born in 1888 in Mile-End New Town, as were the two younger ones. They lived in Dunk Street in 1891..

The only other Lipski I could find was a Soloman Lipski born 1861 Russia, living in Cheetham Lancashire in 1891 census.
.

Pat....................................

[Paddy]

Another Lipski family

Also found Lewis's dad Moses AKA Barnett Lipskie, a furrier b 1820s in Poland.
He was living in Sandys Row Spitalfields, with family in 1881 census and 1891 census.
There were two other sons apart from Lewis, they were Rueben b1867 and Isaac b1870. I wonder if this was the family that Israel Lipski copied his name from? (It was said that he was not related though)

Pat....................

[lynn cates]

plus ultra

Hello Scott. Thanks.

Yes, his testimony is fraught with ambiguity. Little wonder the Lehman lads sought more evidence before agreeing to proceed.

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

difficulties

Hello CD. Thanks.

Yes, translation (any language) makes for difficulties.

cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

errata

Hello MB. Thanks.

"It was earlier!"

Indeed. And . . .?

". . . and we have no idea how long PM was stood there. . ."

Well, how long does it take to light a pipe, given average competence at it?

"According to Schwartz's press statement he was."

You mean BSM shouting at PM?

"Not his missus, Lynn, BSM's missus."

Are you seriously suggesting that BSM was married to Liz? A secret union perhaps? And so he accidentally ran across her in Berner?

"Not sure where you get from Lynn?"

PM fled the scene, just as Schwartz did.

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

perception of danger

Hello Harry.

"If 'Pipeman' himself was scared, why didn't he precede Schwartz in fleeing the scene?"

People perceive "danger" at different rates.

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

F G A

Hello John. Thanks.

"Mention of doubt in the Star doesn't really mean much if police records suggest just the opposite."

Entirely agree. Do you, perhaps, have access to the original interview at Lehman and the dictum which ostensibly precipitated the story in "The Star"? I'd love to see it.

"And Abberline's failure to grasp what Schwartz was saying about "Lipski" sounds like an impatient cop frustrated with a hard to understand interpreter."

Abberline clearly stated that he had questioned Schwartz closely on the point--to no avail.

"My opinion of Abberline's skill as an interviewer has slipped a notch."

Indeed? Have you read FGA's note, pp. 126 & 7 "Ultimate"?

Cheers.
LC

[Stephen Thomas]

Just for jolly, there is no way that Schwartz's evidence was not heard at the inquest.

Given that he apparently witnessed the prelude to the murder and all.

So his evidence would have been given secretly or in camera as they say.

A classic case of the police withholding evidence.

Schwartz was totally unknown until 1976 via Stephen Knight's book.