Which Schwartz interpretation is acurate ?

[Damaso Marte]

Which has formed the solid basis for the objection that Stride's killer was Jack the Ripper.

In Berner St. a staggering drunk assaults Stride, yet 40 minutes later a stealthy killer slaughtered Eddowes?

Which is why I said I would reject Stride as a Ripper victim, if I believed Schwartz. Of course, I don't find Schwartz credible. But despite being a defender of orthodoxy and the traditional C5, I'll defend the idea that Schwartz and Stride-as-Ripper-victim are incompatible.

[Wickerman]

I do not believe that anyone could behave as BS Man did, and also successfully commit the murders of Nichols, Chapman, and Eddowes (and Tabram too, for that matter). The hallmark of the other crimes for me are the stealth of the killer. He killed under people's bedrooms, he killed near watchmen, he killed on routes regularly patrolled by police. In at least one case, he may have come within seconds of being seen by an oncoming witness.

I do not believe a rowdy brawler like BS Man could have done that. No matter what kind of hat he is wearing.

Which has formed the solid basis for the objection that Stride's killer was Jack the Ripper.

In Berner St. a staggering drunk assaults Stride, yet 40 minutes later a stealthy killer slaughtered Eddowes?

[Damaso Marte]

I do not believe that anyone could behave as BS Man did, and also successfully commit the murders of Nichols, Chapman, and Eddowes (and Tabram too, for that matter). The hallmark of the other crimes for me are the stealth of the killer. He killed under people's bedrooms, he killed near watchmen, he killed on routes regularly patrolled by police. In at least one case, he may have come within seconds of being seen by an oncoming witness.

I do not believe a rowdy brawler like BS Man could have done that. No matter what kind of hat he is wearing.

[GUT]

G'day Abby

if the situation was today and 3 or more witnesses describe a suspect with a type of baseball cap I think one could assume fairly accurately that the killer wore a baseball cap. And I am pretty sure baseball caps today are way more common than sailors caps were back then.

Certainly, but would it prove it was the same man in the Baseball cap each of the three times?

[Dr. John Watson]

There is a slight problem matching the clothing description given for BS man and the description of the fellow seen with Eddowes: Schwartz said his man had "dark jacket and trousers, black cap with peak." Lawende described his man as wearing "pepper and salt colour loose jacket, grey cloth cap with peak of same colour, reddish handkerchief tied in a knot, round neck."

Admittedly, poor lighting might affect how well one perceives colors, but black and grey shouldn't be confused that easily, and Schwartz said nothing about a red kerchief. Photographs of East End crowds taken during that time period show many males of all ages wearing peaked caps, so it's certainly possible that Schwartz and Lawende are describing two different men.

John

[Jeff Leahy]

I've always said that either Stride was a Ripper victim, or Schwartz's testimony is legitimate, but not both. This is a good summation of why I hold that view.

Of course, I choose to discount Schwartz rather than discount Stride as a Ripper victim. But if one day Schwartz's account is backed up by something, I will immediately join the Stride-by-another-hand club.

Hi Marte

I read your post with amusement. As its almost the exact oposite of the argument I regularly had with Paul Begg.

I'll leave everyone else to figure it out.

Yours Jeff

[Abby Normal]

"Peaked cap" is a pretty generic term though. Are we talking about a Sailors peaked cap, a railway workers peaked cap, a casual peaked cap, or a deerstalker peaked cap?
If we knew the exact same style was being referenced then it might mean something, only 'might' because peaked caps were common and cheap.

IMHO it doent matter. We have 3 witnesses describe the same kind of hat-marshall, Schwartz, lawende. we have smith saying deerstalker-a cap with a peak and brown who said he had some kind of hat. throw in church street man and well how many witnesses would you need before the coincidence is overwhelming? I mean throw out smith brown and church man and that's still 3 very good witnesses at two separate murder sites. come on now-what are the chances?

if the situation was today and 3 or more witnesses describe a suspect with a type of baseball cap I think one could assume fairly accurately that the killer wore a baseball cap. And I am pretty sure baseball caps today are way more common than sailors caps were back then.

[lynn cates]

yes

Hello Jon. Precisely.

Cheers.
LC

[Wickerman]

Hi DM
it is. the peaked cap. The peaked cap is the key. it ties it all together including that the lawende suspect was also wearing a peaked cap and was the killer of eddowes who was a ripper victim.

"Peaked cap" is a pretty generic term though. Are we talking about a Sailors peaked cap, a railway workers peaked cap, a casual peaked cap, or a deerstalker peaked cap?
If we knew the exact same style was being referenced then it might mean something, only 'might' because peaked caps were common and cheap.

[Abby Normal]

This, I think, is in the realm of creating the Ripper into a mythical super-villain, who never deviated from his MO, was always successful and efficient in his murders, etc. When you read the accounts of serial killers, even highly efficient ones, they often deviate from expected behavior, change their MO, they make mistakes, they act impulsively. Look at Kemper, Ridgeway, etc.
RH

Hi Rob
great post. totally agree.
Look at bundy and how he lost it at the sorority house. that was so unlike his usual MO.

[Abby Normal]

I've always said that either Stride was a Ripper victim, or Schwartz's testimony is legitimate, but not both. This is a good summation of why I hold that view.

Of course, I choose to discount Schwartz rather than discount Stride as a Ripper victim. But if one day Schwartz's account is backed up by something, I will immediately join the Stride-by-another-hand club.

Hi DM
it is. the peaked cap. The peaked cap is the key. it ties it all together including that the lawende suspect was also wearing a peaked cap and was the killer of eddowes who was a ripper victim. so stride was also a ripper victim. Schwartz was truthful and saw stride being attacked by the ripper. The ripper was wearing a peaked cap that night.

the ripper lost his temper(and usual MO) with stride, who would not go or take him to a secluded spot, after he wasted time and perhaps money on her. which is probably why she wound up with only a cut throat and not mutilated . surely a viscious serial killer can lose their temper?

[robhouse]

Jacks MO was always , gain confidence and put his victim at ease . Something I think he was very accomplished at .. The same MO that would charm and reassure Annie into a dark back yard , and lure Kate to the darkest corner of a deserted square at the height of the murders .. Also convince Polly to lead him to a quiet spot .. None of these women were dragged kicking and screaming to the places where they were found murdered .. they were all willing accomplices to their own demise . The killer of these women was always in control of the situation and none of them would have suspected a thing until it was too late . Then we have Liz and her all too public street fight with BSM !

This, I think, is in the realm of creating the Ripper into a mythical super-villain, who never deviated from his MO, was always successful and efficient in his murders, etc. When you read the accounts of serial killers, even highly efficient ones, they often deviate from expected behavior, change their MO, they make mistakes, they act impulsively. Look at Kemper, Ridgeway, etc.
RH

[moonbegger]

Hello Damaso ,

I've always said that either Stride was a Ripper victim, or Schwartz's testimony is legitimate, but not both. This is a good summation of why I hold that view.

Of course, I choose to discount Schwartz rather than discount Stride as a Ripper victim. But if one day Schwartz's account is backed up by something, I will immediately join the Stride-by-another-hand club.

Which came first .. The Chicken or the Egg

moonbegger

[lynn cates]

well spoke

Hello Damaso. This is very well put.

Cheers.
LC

[GUT]

G'day Damaso Marte

I've always said that either Stride was a Ripper victim, or Schwartz's testimony is legitimate, but not both. This is a good summation of why I hold that view.

I would agree with that assessment, but I can see why others may not.