Berner Street: No Plot, No Mystery

[JeffHamm]

I’ve suggested a timeline as has Jeff, George, Dusty and Frank (who did one without times) You disagree Michael. So why don’t you produce a timeline for discussion?

I would also be interested in seeing Michael's time line. It might help point out all the conflict he refers to that supposedly exists in the one we are discussing, because for the life of me I don't see it.

- Jeff

[Herlock Sholmes]

I would also be interested in seeing Michael's time line. It might help point out all the conflict he refers to that supposedly exists in the one we are discussing, because for the life of me I don't see it.

- Jeff

Neither do I Jeff.

[JeffHamm]

Hi Helock,

...
I'd suggest that the only questions left are - could Schwartz actually have seen the incident prior to 12.30? And if not, did it occur before or after Fanny went on to her doorstep?

I think trying to work out Fanny's vigil would be the first step, but her statements to the news are all over the show. I am thinking of trying to collect her statements into a Wickerman Clock diagram to see what emerges, but that could take a bit of time to track down all her statements in the press.

Do you know if there is a thread where all of her press coverage has been presented in one place? That would be ideal as it would lower the chances I miss some, but no worries if not.

- Jeff

[Herlock Sholmes]

Hi Helock,


I think trying to work out Fanny's vigil would be the first step, but her statements to the news are all over the show. I am thinking of trying to collect her statements into a Wickerman Clock diagram to see what emerges, but that could take a bit of time to track down all her statements in the press.

Do you know if there is a thread where all of her press coverage has been presented in one place? That would be ideal as it would lower the chances I miss some, but no worries if not.

- Jeff

Hi Jeff,

I’m not aware of such a thread but I have cut and pasted a few.


…


The Daily News from October 1, 1888:

1. A woman who lives two doors from the club has made an important statement. It appears that shortly before a quarter to one o'clock she heard the measured, heavy tramp of a policeman passing the house on his beat. Immediately afterwards she went to the street-door, with the intention of shooting the bolts, though she remained standing there for ten minutes before she did so. During the ten minutes she saw no one enter or leave the neighbouring yard, and she feels sure that had any one done so she could not have overlooked the fact.

2) Mrs. Mortimer, living at 36, Berner-street, four doors from the scene of the tragedy, says: I was standing at the door of my house nearly the whole time between half-past twelve and one o'clock this (Sunday) morning, and did not notice anything unusual.



Daily News, Oct 1st


A woman who lives two doors from the club has made an important statement. It appears that shortly before a quarter to one o'clock she heard the measured, heavy tramp of a policeman passing the house on his beat. Immediately afterwards she went to the street-door, with the intention of shooting the bolts, though she remained standing there for ten minutes before she did so. During the ten minutes she saw no one enter or leave the neighbouring yard, and she feels sure that had any one done so she could not have overlooked the fact. The quiet and deserted character of the street appears even to have struck her at the time. Locking the door, she prepared to retire to bed, in the front room on the ground floor, and it so happened that in about four minutes' time she heard the pony cart pass the house, and remarked upon the circumstance to her husband. Thus, presuming that the body did not lay in the yard when the policeman passed-and it could hardly, it is thought, have escaped his notice-and presuming also that the assassin and his victim did not enter the yard while the woman stood at the door, it follows that they must have entered it within a minute or two before the arrival of the pony trap. If this be a correct surmise, it is easy to understand that the criminal may have been interrupted at his work.



Illustrated Police News, Oct 6th

Mrs. Mortimer, living at 36, Berner-street, four doors from the scene of the tragedy, says:- "I was standing at the door of my house nearly the whole time between half-past twelve and one o'clock on Sunday morning, and did not notice anything unusual. I had just gone indoors, and was preparing to go to bed, when I heard a commotion outside and immediately ran out thinking that there was another row at the Socialists' Club close by. I went to see what was the matter, and was informed that another dreadful murder had been committed in the yard adjoining the clubhouse, and on going inside I saw the body of a woman lying huddled up just inside the gates with her throat cut from ear to ear. A man touched her face and said it was quite warm, so that the deed must have been done while I was standing at the door of my house. There was certainly no noise made, and I did not observe anyone enter the gates. It was just after one o'clock when I went out, and the only man whom I had seen pass through the street previously was a young man carrying a black, shiny bag, who walked very fast down the street from the Commercial-road. He looked up at the club and then went round the corner by the Board School. I was told that the manager or steward of the club had discovered the woman on his return home in his pony-cart. He drove through the gates, and my opinion is that he interrupted the murderer, who must have made his escape immediately under cover of the cart. If a man had come out of the yard before one o'clock I must have seen him. It was almost incredible to me that the thing could have been done without the steward's wife hearing a noise, for she was sitting in the kitchen, from which a window opens four yards from the spot where the woman was found. The body was lying slightly on one side, with the legs a little drawn up as if in pain, the clothes being slightly disarranged so that the legs were partly visible. The woman appeared to me to be respectable, judging by her clothes, and in her hand were found a bunch of grapes and some sweets. A young man and his sweetheart were standing at the corner of the street, about twenty yards away, before and after the time the woman must have been murdered, but they told me they did not hear a sound.



London Evening News, Oct 1st

A woman who lives two doors from the club has made an important statement. It appears that shortly before a quarter to one o'clock she heard the measured, heavy tramp of a policeman passing the house on his beat. Immediately afterwards she went to the street-door, with the intention of shooting the bolts, though she remained standing there ten minutes before she did so. During the ten minutes she saw no one enter or leave the neighbouring yard, and she feels sure that had any one done so she could not have overlooked the fact. The quiet and deserted character of the street appears even to have struck her at the time. Locking the door, she prepared to retire to bed, in the front room on the ground floor, and it so happened that in about four minutes' time she heard Diemschitz's pony cart pass the house, and remarked upon the circumstance to her husband.


DISTURBING THE MURDERER.


Presuming that the body did not lie in the yard when the policeman passed - and it could hardly, it is thought, have escaped his notice - and presuming also that the assassin and his victim did not enter the yard while the woman stood at the door, it follows that they must have entered it within a minute or two before the arrival of the pony trap. If this be a correct surmise, it is easy to understand that the criminal may have been interrupted at his work. Diemschitz says he thinks it quite possible that after he had entered the yard the assassin may have fled out of it, having lurked in the gloom until a favourable moment arrived.


Morning Advertiser, Oct 1st

Mrs. Mortimer, living at 36 Berner street, four doors from the scene of the tragedy, says:- "I was standing at the door of my house nearly the whole time between half past twelve and one o'clock this (Saturday) morning, and I did not notice anything unusual. I had just gone indoors and was preparing to go to bed, when I heard a commotion outside, and immediately ran out thinking that there was another row at the Socialists' club close by. I went to see what was the matter, and was informed that another dreadful murder had been committed in the yard adjoining the club house. On going inside I saw the body of a woman lying huddled up just inside the gates, with her throat cut from ear to ear. A man touched her face, and said it was quite warm, so the deed must have been done while I was standing at the door of my house. There was certainly no noise made, and I did not observe anyone enter the gates. It was just after one o'clock when I went out, and the only man whom I had seen pass through the street previously was a young man carrying a black shiny bag who walked very fast down the street from the Commercial road. He looked up at the club, and then went round the corner by the board school. I was told that the manager or steward of the club had discovered the woman on his return home in his pony cart. He drove through the gates, and my opinion is that he interrupted that murderer, who must have made his escape immediately under cover of the cart. If a man had come out of the yard before one o'clock I must have seen him. It was almost incredible to me that the thing could be done without the steward's wife hearing the noise, for she was sitting in the kitchen, from which a window opens four yards from the spot where the woman was found. The body was lying slightly on one side with the legs a little drawn up as if in pain, the clothes being slightly disarranged, so that the legs were partly visible. The woman appeared to me to be respectable, judging by her clothes, and in her hand were found a bunch of grapes and some sweets. A young man and his sweetheart were standing at the corner of the street, about twenty yards away, before and after the woman must have been murdered, but they told me they did not hear a sound.


Pall Mall Gazette, Oct 6th

Mrs Mortimer, living at 36, Berner-street, four doors from the scene of the tragedy, has made the following statement:- "I was standing at the door of my house nearly the whole time between half-past twelve and one o'clock on Sunday morning, and did not notice anything unusual. As the body when found was quite warm, the deed must have been done while I was standing at the door of my house. There was certainly no noise made, and I did not observe any one enter the gates. It was just after one o'clock when I went out, and the only man I had seen pass through the street previously was a young man carrying a black, shiny bag who walked very fast down the street from the Commercial-road. He looked up at the club, and then went round the corner by the board school".


The Times, Oct 1st

Mrs. Mortimer, living at 36, Berners-street, four doors from the scene of the tragedy, has made the following statement:- ''I was standing at the door of my house nearly the whole time between half-past 12 and 1 o'clock on Sunday morning, and did not notice anything unusual. I had just gone indoors and was preparing to go to bed when I heard a commotion outside, and immediately ran out, thinking that there was a row at the Socialists' club close by. I went to see what was the matter, and was informed that another dreadful murder had been committed in the yard adjoining the club-house, and on going inside I saw the body of a woman lying huddled up just inside the gates with her throat cut from ear to ear. A man touched her face and said it was quite warm, so that the deed must have been done while I was standing at the door of my house. There was certainly no noise made, and I did not observe any one enter the gates. It was just after 1 o'clock when I went out, and the only man I had seen pass through the street previously was a young man carrying a black, shiny bag, who walked very fast down the street from the Commercial-road. He looked up at the club and then went round the corner by the Board school.''

[JeffHamm]

Hi Jeff,

I'm not aware of such a thread but I have cut and pasted a few.

...

Fantastic, thanks!

- Jeff

[Lewis C]

And as we have a good idea of what approximate time Lamb arrived from his ‘10 minutes before Blackwell’ (approx 1.06) The we can apply Spooner’s 5 minutes before Lamb which has him getting to the yard at around 1.01 which, as you say, is easily in line with Louis getting back at around 1.00.

I’d suggest that the only questions left are - could Schwartz actually have seen the incident prior to 12.30? And if not, did it occur before or after Fanny went on to her doorstep?

Hi Herlock,

I suggest that there are at least 2 more questions: Did the Schwartz incident occur before or after the Brown sighting? Was Brown correct that the woman that he saw was Stride?

[Herlock Sholmes]

Hi Herlock,

I suggest that there are at least 2 more questions: Did the Schwartz incident occur before or after the Brown sighting? Was Brown correct that the woman that he saw was Stride?

Hi Lewis,

Yes, I’ve recently done timeline’s/scenarios that account for both possibilities. It will be interesting if Jeff is going to look at all reports of Mortimer because it seems impossible to gauge what she actually did and when she did it. I might have another look myself but when I said in my original posts that Mortimer is close to useless as a witness I wasn’t just trying to be controversial. Time wise she’s impossible to evaluate accurately.

[FrankO]

Fantastic, thanks!

- Jeff

Hi Jeff & Mike,

I would only add the following piece to what Mike posted, although it's not been established that it's Fanny Mortimer. However, if not, then there were 2 women living right next to each other who witnessed practically the same things without mentioning their neighbour also standing at her door.

Evening News, 1/10
INTERVIEW WITH A NEIGHBOUR.
Some three doors from the gateway where the body of the first victim was discovered, I saw a clean, respectable-looking woman chatting with one or two neighbours. She was apparently the wife of a well-to-do artisan, and formed a strong contrast to many of those around her. I got into conversation with her and found that she was one of the first on the spot.
TEN INCHES OF COLD STEEL.
"I was just about going to bed, sir, when I heard a call for the police. I ran to the door, and before I could open it I heard somebody say, 'Come out quick; there's a poor woman here that's had ten inches of cold steel in her.' I hurried out, and saw some two or three people standing in the gateway. Lewis, the man who looks after the Socialist Club at No. 40, was there, and his wife.
"Then I see a sight that turned me all sick and cold. There was the murdered woman a-lying on her side, with her throat cut across till her head seemed to be hanging by a bit of skin. Her legs was drawn up under her, and her head and the upper part of her body was soaked in blood. She was dressed in black as if she was in mourning for somebody.
MURDERED WITHIN SOUND OF MUSIC AND DANCING.
"Did you hear no sound of quarrelling, no cry for help?" I asked.
"Nothing of the sort, sir. I should think I must have heard it if the poor creature screamed at all, for I hadn't long come in from the door when I was roused, as I tell you, by that call for the police. But that was from the people as found the body. Mr. Lewis, who travels in cheap drapery things a bit now and again, had just drove into the yard when his horse shied at something that was lying in the corner. He thought 'twas a bundle of some kind till he got down from his cart and struck a light. Then he saw what it was and gave the alarm."
"Was the street quiet at the time?"
"Yes, there was hardly anybody moving about, except at the club. There was music and dancing going on there at the very time that that poor creature was being murdered at their very door, as one may say."
A MAN WITH A BLACK BAG!
" I suppose you did not notice a man and woman pass down the street while you were at the door?"
"No, sir. I think I should have noticed them if they had. Particularly if they'd been strangers, at that time o' night. I only noticed one person passing, just before I turned in. That was a young man walking up Berner-street, carrying a black bag in his hand."
"Did you observe him closely, or notice anything in his appearance?"
"No, I didn't pay particular attention to him. He was respectably dressed, but was a stranger to me. He might ha' been coming from the Socialist Club., A good many young men goes there, of a Saturday night especially."

The best,
Frank

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Hi Lewis,

Yes, I’ve recently done timeline’s/scenarios that account for both possibilities. It will be interesting if Jeff is going to look at all reports of Mortimer because it seems impossible to gauge what she actually did and when she did it. I might have another look myself but when I said in my original posts that Mortimer is close to useless as a witness I wasn’t just trying to be controversial. Time wise she’s impossible to evaluate accurately.

That might be a bit of an exaggeration, but whatever the case, it could have been cleared up at the inquest. I wonder if Mortimer saw something that was more likely to stir up ethnic tensions than the GSG.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Hi Jeff & Mike,

I would only add the following piece to what Mike posted, although it's not been established that it's Fanny Mortimer. However, if not, then there were 2 women living right next to each other who witnessed practically the same things without mentioning their neighbour also standing at her door.

Evening News, 1/10
INTERVIEW WITH A NEIGHBOUR.
Some three doors from the gateway where the body of the first victim was discovered, I saw a clean, respectable-looking woman chatting with one or two neighbours. She was apparently the wife of a well-to-do artisan, and formed a strong contrast to many of those around her. I got into conversation with her and found that she was one of the first on the spot.
TEN INCHES OF COLD STEEL.
"I was just about going to bed, sir, when I heard a call for the police. I ran to the door, and before I could open it I heard somebody say, 'Come out quick; there's a poor woman here that's had ten inches of cold steel in her.' I hurried out, and saw some two or three people standing in the gateway. Lewis, the man who looks after the Socialist Club at No. 40, was there, and his wife.
"Then I see a sight that turned me all sick and cold. There was the murdered woman a-lying on her side, with her throat cut across till her head seemed to be hanging by a bit of skin. Her legs was drawn up under her, and her head and the upper part of her body was soaked in blood. She was dressed in black as if she was in mourning for somebody.
MURDERED WITHIN SOUND OF MUSIC AND DANCING.
"Did you hear no sound of quarrelling, no cry for help?" I asked.
"Nothing of the sort, sir. I should think I must have heard it if the poor creature screamed at all, for I hadn't long come in from the door when I was roused, as I tell you, by that call for the police. But that was from the people as found the body. Mr. Lewis, who travels in cheap drapery things a bit now and again, had just drove into the yard when his horse shied at something that was lying in the corner. He thought 'twas a bundle of some kind till he got down from his cart and struck a light. Then he saw what it was and gave the alarm."
"Was the street quiet at the time?"
"Yes, there was hardly anybody moving about, except at the club. There was music and dancing going on there at the very time that that poor creature was being murdered at their very door, as one may say."
A MAN WITH A BLACK BAG!
" I suppose you did not notice a man and woman pass down the street while you were at the door?"
"No, sir. I think I should have noticed them if they had. Particularly if they'd been strangers, at that time o' night. I only noticed one person passing, just before I turned in. That was a young man walking up Berner-street, carrying a black bag in his hand."
"Did you observe him closely, or notice anything in his appearance?"
"No, I didn't pay particular attention to him. He was respectably dressed, but was a stranger to me. He might ha' been coming from the Socialist Club., A good many young men goes there, of a Saturday night especially."

The best,
Frank

Cheers Frank, this has to be Fanny although it’s been disputed in the past.

[Herlock Sholmes]

As Jeff was talking about looking at Mortimer-related articles I’ve just been through the Press Reports section on here. These are what we have….much repetition of course.

Daily News, October 1st

A woman who lives two doors from the club has made an important statement. It appears that shortly before a quarter to one o'clock she heard the measured, heavy tramp of a policeman passing the house on his beat. Immediately afterwards she went to the street-door, with the intention of shooting the bolts, though she remained standing there for ten minutes before she did so. During the ten minutes she saw no one enter or leave the neighbouring yard, and she feels sure that had any one done so she could not have overlooked the fact. The quiet and deserted character of the street appears even to have struck her at the time. Locking the door, she prepared to retire to bed, in the front room on the ground floor, and it so happened that in about four minutes' time she heard the pony cart pass the house, and remarked upon the circumstance to her husband. Thus, presuming that the body did not lay in the yard when the policeman passed-and it could hardly, it is thought, have escaped his notice-and presuming also that the assassin and his victim did not enter the yard while the woman stood at the door, it follows that they must have entered it within a minute or two before the arrival of the pony trap. If this be a correct surmise, it is easy to understand that the criminal may have been interrupted at his work. The man who drove the cart says he thinks it quite possible that after he had entered the yard the assassin may have fled out of it, having lurked in the gloom until a favourable moment arrived.

Same edition

Mrs. Mortimer, living at 36, Berner-street, four doors from the scene of the tragedy, says: I was standing at the door of my house nearly the whole time between half-past twelve and one o'clock this (Sunday) morning, and did not notice anything unusual. I had just gone indoors, and was preparing to go to bed, when I heard a commotion outside, and immediately ran out, thinking that there was another row at the Socialists' Club close by. I went to see what was the matter, and was informed that another dreadful murder had been committed in the yard adjoining the clubhouse, and on going inside I saw the body of a woman lying huddled up just inside the gates with her throat cut from ear to ear. A man touched her face, and said it was quite warm, so that the deed must have been done while I was standing at the door of my house. There was certainly no noise made, and I did not observe anyone enter the gates. It was just after one o'clock when I went out, and the only man whom I had seen pass through the street previously was a young man carrying a black shiny bag, who walked very fast down the street from the Commercial-road. He looked up at the club, and then went round the corner by the Board School. I was told that the manager or steward of the club had discovered the woman on his return home in his pony cart. He drove through the gates, and my opinion is that he interrupted the murderer, who must have made his escape immediately under cover of the cart. If a man had come out of the yard before one o'clock I must have seen him. It was almost incredible to me that the thing could have been done without the steward's wife hearing a noise, for she was sitting in the kitchen from which a window opens four yards from the spot where the woman was found. The body was lying slightly on one side, with the legs a little drawn up as if in pain, the clothes being slightly disarranged, so that the legs were partly visible. The woman appeared to me to be respectable, judging by her clothes, and in her hand were found a bunch of grapes and some sweets. A young man and his sweetheart were standing at the corner of the street, about 20 yards away, before and after the time the woman must have been murdered, but they told me they did not hear a sound

—————————-

East London Observer, October 6th

Mrs. Mortimer of 36, Berner-street, who was standing at her door between half-past twelve

—————————

Evening News, October 1st

INTERVIEW WITH A NEIGHBOUR.

Some three doors from the gateway where the body of the first victim was discovered, I saw a clean, respectable-looking woman chatting with one or two neighbours. She was apparently the wife of a well-to-do artisan, and formed a strong contrast to many of those around her. I got into conversation with her and found that she was one of the first on the spot.

TEN INCHES OF COLD STEEL.

"I was just about going to bed, sir, when I heard a call for the police. I ran to the door, and before I could open it I heard somebody say, 'Come out quick; there's a poor woman here that's had ten inches of cold steel in her.' I hurried out, and saw some two or three people standing in the gateway. Lewis, the man who looks after the Socialist Club at No. 40, was there, and his wife.

"Then I see a sight that turned me all sick and cold. There was the murdered woman a-lying on her side, with her throat cut across till her head seemed to be hanging by a bit of skin. Her legs was drawn up under her, and her head and the upper part of her body was soaked in blood. She was dressed in black as if she was in mourning for somebody.

MURDERED WITHIN SOUND OF MUSIC AND DANCING.

"Did you hear no sound of quarrelling, no cry for help?" I asked.

"Nothing of the sort, sir. I should think I must have heard it if the poor creature screamed at all, for I hadn't long come in from the door when I was roused, as I tell you, by that call for the police. But that was from the people as found the body. Mr. Lewis, who travels in cheap drapery things a bit now and again, had just drove into the yard when his horse shied at something that was lying in the corner. He thought 'twas a bundle of some kind till he got down from his cart and struck a light. Then he saw what it was and gave the alarm."

"Was the street quiet at the time?"

"Yes, there was hardly anybody moving about, except at the club. There was music and dancing going on there at the very time that that poor creature was being murdered at their very door, as one may say."

A MAN WITH A BLACK BAG!

" I suppose you did not notice a man and woman pass down the street while you were at the door?"

"No, sir. I think I should have noticed them if they had. Particularly if they'd been strangers, at that time o' night. I only noticed one person passing, just before I turned in. That was a young man walking up Berner-street, carrying a black bag in his hand."

"Did you observe him closely, or notice anything in his appearance?"

"No, I didn't pay particular attention to him. He was respectably dressed, but was a stranger to me. He might ha' been coming from the Socialist Club., A good many young men goes there, of a Saturday night especially."

That was all that my informant had to tell me. I wonder will the detectives think it worth while to satisfy themselves about that black bag

Same edition…

A woman who lives two doors from the club has made an important statement. It appears that shortly before a quarter to one o'clock she heard the measured, heavy tramp of a policeman passing the house on his beat. Immediately afterwards she went to the street-door, with the intention of shooting the bolts, though she remained standing there ten minutes before she did so. During the ten minutes she saw no one enter or leave the neighbouring yard, and she feels sure that had any one done so she could not have overlooked the fact. The quiet and deserted character of the street appears even to have struck her at the time. Locking the door, she prepared to retire to bed, in the front room on the ground floor, and it so happened that in about four minutes' time she heard Diemschitz's pony cart pass the house, and remarked upon the circumstance to her husband.

DISTURBING THE MURDERER.

Presuming that the body did not lie in the yard when the policeman passed-and it could hardly, it is thought, have escaped his notice-and presuming also that the assassin and his victim did not enter the yard while the woman stood at the door, it follows that they must have entered it within a minute or two before the arrival of the pony trap. If this be a correct surmise, it is easy to understand that the criminal may have been interrupted at his work. Diemschitz says he thinks it quite possible that after he had entered the yard the assassin may have fled out of it, having lurked in the gloom until a favourable moment arrived.

———————————

Evening Standard, October 1st

Mrs. Mortimer, living at 36, Berner-street, four doors from the scene of the murder says:- "I was standing at the door of my house nearly the whole time between hlf-past twelve and one o'clock on Sunday morning, and did not notice anything unusual. I had just gone indoors, when I heard a commotion outside, and immediately ran out, thinking there was another row at the Socialists' Club, close by. I went to see what was the matter, and was informed that another murder had been committed in the yard adjoining the Club-house, and, on going inside, I saw the body of a woman lying bundled up just inside the gates, with her throat cut from ear to ear. A man touched her face, and said it was quite warm, so that the deed must have been done while I was standing at the door of my house. There was certainly no noise made, and I did not observe anyone enter the gates. It was just after one o'clock when I went out, and the only man whom I had seen pass through the street previously was a young man, carrying a shiny bag, who walked very fast down the street from the Commercial-road. He looked up at the Club, and then went round the corner by the Board School. I was told that the manager or steward of the Club had discovered the woman on his return home in his pony cart. He drove through the gates, and my opinion is that he interrupted the murderer who must have made his escape immediately under cover of the cart. If a man had come out of the yard before one o'clock I must have seen him. It was almost incredible to me that the thing could have been done without the steward's wife hearing a noise, for she was sitting in the kitchen from which a window opens four yards from the spot where the woman was found. The body was lying slightly on one side, with the legs a little drawn up as if in pain, the clothes being slightly disarranged, so that the legs were partly visible."

—————————-

Illustrated Police News, October 6th

Mrs. Mortimer, living at 36, Berner-street, four doors from the scene of the tragedy, says:- "I was standing at the door of my house nearly the whole time between half-past twelve and one o'clock on Sunday morning, and did not notice anything unusual. I had just gone indoors, and was preparing to go to bed, when I heard a commotion outside and immediately ran out thinking that there was another row at the Socialists' Club close by. I went to see what was the matter, and was informed that another dreadful murder had been committed in the yard adjoining the clubhouse, and on going inside I saw the body of a woman lying huddled up just inside the gates with her throat cut from ear to ear. A man touched her face and said it was quite warm, so that the deed must have been done while I was standing at the door of my house. There was certainly no noise made, and I did not observe anyone enter the gates. It was just after one o'clock when I went out, and the only man whom I had seen pass through the street previously was a young man carrying a black, shiny bag, who walked very fast down the street from the Commercial-road. He looked up at the club and then went round the corner by the Board School. I was told that the manager or steward of the club had discovered the woman on his return home in his pony-cart. He drove through the gates, and my opinion is that he interrupted the murderer, who must have made his escape immediately under cover of the cart. If a man had come out of the yard before one o'clock I must have seen him. It was almost incredible to me that the thing could have been done without the steward's wife hearing a noise, for she was sitting in the kitchen, from which a window opens four yards from the spot where the woman was found. The body was lying slightly on one side, with the legs a little drawn up as if in pain, the clothes being slightly disarranged so that the legs were partly visible. The woman appeared to me to be respectable, judging by her clothes, and in her hand were found a bunch of grapes and some sweets. A young man and his sweetheart were standing at the corner of the street, about twenty yards away, before and after the time the woman must have been murdered, but they told me they did not hear a sound."

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The London Evening News, October 1st

Mrs. Mortimer, living at 36, Berner-street, four doors from the scene of the tragedy, says: I was standing at the door of my house nearly the whole time between half-past twelve and one o'clock this (Sunday) morning, and did not notice anything unusual. I had just gone indoors, and was preparing to go to bed, when I heard a commotion outside, and immediately ran out, thinking that there was another row at the Socialists' Club close by. I went to see what was the matter, and was informed that another dreadful murder had been committed in the yard adjoining the club-house, and on going inside I saw the body of a woman lying huddled up just inside the yard with her throat cut from ear to ear. A man touched her face, and said it was quite warm, so that the deed must have been done while I was standing at the door of my house. There was certainly no noise made, and I did not observe any one enter the gates. It was soon after one o'clock when I went out, and the only man whom I had seen pass through the street previously was a young man carrying a black shiny bag, who walked very fast down the street from the Commercial-road. He looked up at the club, and then went round the corner by the Board School. I was told that the manager or steward of the club had discovered the woman on his return home in his pony cart. He drove through the gates, and my opinion is that he interrupted the murderer, who must have made his escape immediately under cover of the cart. If a man had come out of the yard before one o'clock I must have seen him. It was almost incredible to me that the thing could have been done without the steward's wife hearing a noise, for she was sitting in the kitchen, from which a window opens four yards from the spot where the woman was found. The body was lying slightly on one side, with the legs a little drawn up as if in pain, the clothes being slightly disarranged, so that the legs were partly visible. The woman appeared to me to be respectable, judging by her clothes, and in her hand were found a bunch of grapes and some sweets. A young man and his sweetheart were standing at the corner of the street, about twenty yards away, before and after the time the woman must have been murdered, but they told me they did not hear a sound.

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Morning Advertiser, October 1st

Mrs. Mortimer, living at 36 Berner street, four doors from the scene of the tragedy, says:- "I was standing at the door of my house nearly the whole time between half past twelve and one o'clock this (Saturday) morning, and I did not notice anything unusual. I had just gone indoors and was preparing to go to bed, when I heard a commotion outside, and immediately ran out thinking that there was another row at the Socialists' club close by. I went to see what was the matter, and was informed that another dreadful murder had been committed in the yard adjoining the club house. On going inside I saw the body of a woman lying huddled up just inside the gates, with her throat cut from ear to ear. A man touched her face, and said it was quite warm, so the deed must have been done while I was standing at the door of my house. There was certainly no noise made, and I did not observe anyone enter the gates. It was just after one o'clock when I went out, and the only man whom I had seen pass through the street previously was a young man carrying a black shiny bag who walked very fast down the street from the Commercial road. He looked up at the club, and then went round the corner by the board school. I was told that the manager or steward of the club had discovered the woman on his return home in his pony cart. He drove through the gates, and my opinion is that he interrupted that murderer, who must have made his escape immediately under cover of the cart. If a man had come out of the yard before one o'clock I must have seen him. It was almost incredible to me that the thing could be done without the steward's wife hearing the noise, for she was sitting in the kitchen, from which a window opens four yards from the spot where the woman was found. The body was lying slightly on one side with the legs a little drawn up as if in pain, the clothes being slightly disarranged, so that the legs were partly visible. The woman appeared to me to be respectable, judging by her clothes, and in her hand were found a bunch of grapes and some sweets. A young man and his sweetheart were standing at the corner of the street, about twenty yards away, before and after the woman must have been murdered, but they told me they did not hear a sound. Charles Letchford, living at 30 Berner street, says:- "I passed through the street at half past 12, and everything seemed to me to be going on as usual, and my sister was standing at the door at ten minutes to one, but did not see anyone pass by. I heard the commotion when the body was found, and heard the policemen's whistles, but did not take any notice of the matter, as disturbances are very frequent at the club, and I thought it was only another row."

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News Of The World, October 7th

A female who lives in Berner-street, only a few houses off, says she was standing at her door nearly the whole time between half-past twelve and one o'clock on Sunday morning, and did not notice anything unusual; she had only just gone indoors when a commotion brought her to her door again, and she found that a murder had been committed.

The deed must have been done she says, "while I was standing at the door of my house". If that were the case we cannot see the police are so entirely to blame for the murderer's escape.

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North Eastern Daily Gazette, October 1st

Mrs. Mortimer, living at 36 Berner street, four doors from the scene of the first tragedy, says:-

I was standing at the door of my house nearly the whole time between half past twelve and one o'clock on Sunday morning, and did not notice anything unusual. I had just gone indoors, and was preparing to go to bed when I heard a commotion outside, and immediately ran out, thinking that there was another row at the Socialists' Club close by. I went to see what was the matter, and was informed that another dreadful murder had been committed in the yard adjoining the Club house, and on going inside I saw the body of a woman lying huddled up just inside the gates, with her throat cut from ear to ear. A man touched her face, and said it was quite warm, so that the deed must have been done while I was standing at the door of my house. There was certainly no noise made, and I did not observe anyone enter the gates. It was just after one o'clock when I went out, and the only man whom I had seen pass through the street previously was a young man carrying a black shiny bag, who walked very fast down the street from Commercial road. He looked up at the Club, and then went round the corner by the Board School. I was told that the manager or steward of the Club had discovered the woman on his return home in his pony cart. He drove through the gates, and my opinion is that he interrupted the murderer, who must have made his escape immediately under cover of the cart. If a man had come out of the yard before one o'clock I must have seen him. It was almost incredible to me that the thing could have been done without the steward's wife hearing a noise, for she was sitting in the kitchen, from which a window opens four yards from the spot where the woman was found. The body was lying slightly on one side, with the legs a little drawn up as if in pain, the clothes being slightly disarranged, so that the legs were partly visible. The woman appeared to me to be respectable, judging by her clothes, and in her hands were found a bunch of grapes and some sweets. A young man and his sweetheart were standing at the corner of the street about twenty yards away before and after the time the woman must have been murdered, but they told me that they did not hear a sound.

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Pall Mall Gazette, October 1st

Mrs Mortimer, living at 36, Berner-street, four doors from the scene of the tragedy, has made the following statement:- "I was standing at the door of my house nearly the whole time between half-past twelve and one o'clock on Sunday morning, and did not notice anything unusual. As the body when found was quite warm, the deed must have been done while I was standing at the door of my house. There was certainly no noise made, and I did not observe any one enter the gates. It was just after one o'clock when I went out, and the only man I had seen pass through the street previously was a young man carrying a black, shiny bag who walked very fast down the street from the Commercial-road. He looked up at the club, and then went round the corner by the board school"

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The Times, October 1st

Mrs. Mortimer, living at 36, Berners-street, four doors from the scene of the tragedy, has made the following statement:- ''I was standing at the door of my house nearly the whole time between half-past 12 and 1 o'clock on Sunday morning, and did not notice anything unusual. I had just gone indoors and was preparing to go to bed when I heard a commotion outside, and immediately ran out, thinking that there was a row at the Socialists' club close by. I went to see what was the matter, and was informed that another dreadful murder had been committed in the yard adjoining the club-house, and on going inside I saw the body of a woman lying huddled up just inside the gates with her throat cut from ear to ear. A man touched her face and said it was quite warm, so that the deed must have been done while I was standing at the door of my house. There was certainly no noise made, and I did not observe any one enter the gates. It was just after 1 o'clock when I went out, and the only man I had seen pass through the street previously was a young man carrying a black, shiny bag, who walked very fast down the street from the Commercial-road. He looked up at the club and then went round the corner by the Board school.'

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Hi Jeff & Mike,

I would only add the following piece to what Mike posted, although it's not been established that it's Fanny Mortimer. However, if not, then there were 2 women living right next to each other who witnessed practically the same things without mentioning their neighbour also standing at her door.

The woman said, "I was just about going to bed, sir, when I heard a call for the police."

Who did she hear calling for the police? Was it Eagle running up Berner St? If yes, then what does the following suggest?

"I ran to the door, and before I could open it I heard somebody say, 'Come out quick; there's a poor woman here that's had ten inches of cold steel in her.' I hurried out, and saw some two or three people standing in the gateway. Lewis, the man who looks after the Socialist Club at No. 40, was there, and his wife."

It suggests that Diemschitz was already back at the yard. Either that or he never left it.

The mention of two or three people reminds of another witness.

Herschburg: I was one of those who first saw the murdered woman. It was about a quarter to 1 o'clock, I should think, when I heard a policeman's whistle blown, and came down to see what was the matter in the gateway. Two or three people had collected, and when I got there I saw a short dark young woman lying on the ground, with a gash between 4 and 5 inches long in her throat.

One gets the impression that for a couple of minutes at least, neighbours were entering the yard to find the deceased along with just a handful of people. Does that seem right?

[Herlock Sholmes]

I also noticed this in response to Michael’s insistence that Kozebrodski and Isaacs were two different men:


North Eastern Daily Gazette, October 1st.

A member of the club named Kozebrodski, but familiarly known as Isaacs, returned with Diemschitz into the court, and the former struck a match while the latter lifted the body up

[Herlock Sholmes]

The woman said, "I was just about going to bed, sir, when I heard a call for the police."

Who did she hear calling for the police? Was it Eagle running up Berner St? If yes, then what does the following suggest?

"I ran to the door, and before I could open it I heard somebody say, 'Come out quick; there's a poor woman here that's had ten inches of cold steel in her.' I hurried out, and saw some two or three people standing in the gateway. Lewis, the man who looks after the Socialist Club at No. 40, was there, and his wife."

It suggests that Diemschitz was already back at the yard. Either that or he never left it.

The mention of two or three people reminds of another witness.

Herschburg: I was one of those who first saw the murdered woman. It was about a quarter to 1 o'clock, I should think, when I heard a policeman's whistle blown, and came down to see what was the matter in the gateway. Two or three people had collected, and when I got there I saw a short dark young woman lying on the ground, with a gash between 4 and 5 inches long in her throat.

One gets the impression that for a couple of minutes at least, neighbours were entering the yard to find the deceased along with just a handful of people. Does that seem right?

She probably heard Diemschitz and Kozebrodski

[Herlock Sholmes]

The woman said, "I was just about going to bed, sir, when I heard a call for the police."

Who did she hear calling for the police? Was it Eagle running up Berner St? If yes, then what does the following suggest?

"I ran to the door, and before I could open it I heard somebody say, 'Come out quick; there's a poor woman here that's had ten inches of cold steel in her.' I hurried out, and saw some two or three people standing in the gateway. Lewis, the man who looks after the Socialist Club at No. 40, was there, and his wife."

It suggests that Diemschitz was already back at the yard. Either that or he never left it.

The mention of two or three people reminds of another witness.

Herschburg: I was one of those who first saw the murdered woman. It was about a quarter to 1 o'clock, I should think, when I heard a policeman's whistle blown, and came down to see what was the matter in the gateway. Two or three people had collected, and when I got there I saw a short dark young woman lying on the ground, with a gash between 4 and 5 inches long in her throat.

One gets the impression that for a couple of minutes at least, neighbours were entering the yard to find the deceased along with just a handful of people. Does that seem right?

I’d suggest that after finding the body one of the men in the yard stood in the gateway shouting for the police. Then Louis left looking for a Constable with Koz.