Berner Street: No Plot, No Mystery

[Herlock Sholmes]

Can anyone find the very ‘dramatic’ Evening News, Oct 1st version, including the 10 inches of cold steel bit printed anywhere else?

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Both describing the same man going in the same direction. If Fanny had seen two men she have said that she’d seen two men. This is what I mean when I talk about creating mystery where none exist.

The same direction? You cannot be serious.

Your point about seeing two men is meaningless without a time constraint. As of when are you referring to? Just before she locks up? 12:45? 12:30? Since the club event ended?

The Berner St murder has many mysteries. Not sure what you were thinking when you came up with the title of this thread.

Why do people find Leon Goldstein so interesting? He was a bloke heading home. Interviewed by the police with no issue.

I think Pipeman may have chased him for his bag - that part of the story is quite possibly true. However, I think the victim standing at the gates and getting manhandled by a thug on the street, is pure fiction.

[Herlock Sholmes]

The same direction? You cannot be serious.

Your point about seeing two men is meaningless without a time constraint. As of when are you referring to? Just before she locks up? 12:45? 12:30? Since the club event ended?

The Berner St murder has many mysteries. Not sure what you were thinking when you came up with the title of this thread.



I think Pipeman may have chased him for his bag - that part of the story is quite possibly true. However, I think the victim standing at the gates and getting manhandled by a thug on the street, is pure fiction.

It appears that because of one newspaper story in however many says ‘up’ while all the rest use ‘down’ this means all manner of things. And in a newspaper story that has the highly colourful ‘10 inches of steel thing’ which is now taken as some kind of rock solid text. The fact that Fanny only ever mentioned seeing one man is apparently irrelevant.

There are mysteries of course because you keep creating them.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

But I am not referring to UP or DOWN the road, I am referring to the documented phrase that specifically includes the term... "FROM the club".

Therefore, with Mortimer's position north of the club and the man she saw with the black bag coming from the club, it means she saw him walking NORTH toward her and away from the murder site, meaning it's likely the man with the black bag was the Ripper.

That documented phrase is a blind spot, for some of us.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

I agree that the reports seem to be inconsistent with each other. It must be that either Fanny changed her story, or, what I think is more likely, at least one of the journalists didn't report exactly what she said.

Contrast this with the Schwartz police vs press account. It wouldn't be controversial to suggest that those reports seem to be inconsistent with each other. So, we might say...

It must be that either Schwartz changed his story, or what I think is more likely, at least one of the interviewers didn't record exactly what he said.

Yet, that is not what is normally said. We normally blame the Star for the inconsistencies. Are Mortimer and Schwartz being held to different standards?

Since the 10 minute report fits better with the other evidence, I've thought that the reporter that said 30 minutes didn't get it right, but you raise an interesting possibility: maybe the other journalist "fixed" Fanny's statement because he could see that what she was saying didn't seem to be quite right.

What did the journalist who interviewed Mortimer on the day of the murder know, that didn't seem quite right? Why would he prefer to put words in Mortimer's mouth, rather than reveal a contradiction in witness accounts?

[GBinOz]

It appears that because of one newspaper story in however many says ‘up’ while all the rest use ‘down’ this means all manner of things. And in a newspaper story that has the highly colourful ‘10 inches of steel thing’ which is now taken as some kind of rock solid text. The fact that Fanny only ever mentioned seeing one man is apparently irrelevant.

There are mysteries of course because you keep creating them.

Hi Herlock,

I find the fact that Mortimer only ever mentioned seeing one man as highly irrelevant. You will notice that the three disparate interviews were all published in the same edition of the Evening News, 1 October, giving rise to the possibility that the same reporter conducted all three interviews. You are insisting that, when Mortimer was identified by name and address she gave information that was variously reported in multiple publications in almost identical detail, but then decided to provide a different address, or no address, and report completely different stories with absolutely no common detail. Would not the reporter have found this to be curious?

It is a fact that Berner St slopes in a downward direction from Commercial Road to Fairclough St. Goldstein was reported as being seen walking UP that slope towards Commercial St and DOWN that slope from Commercial St to Fairclough St. Mortimer reported only one of those journeys, and I agree that had she seen both she would have reported both. Why is such a mystery of misinterpretations being created about a simple report by someone else of seeing him walking UP the street? Why is it being insisted that Mortimer was the only door stoop snooper when we already know that there were at least two others engaged in that activity that very night?

I find the "10 inches of cold steel" shout of interest in view of the knife found the next day by Thomas Coram which was described as having a bloodstained handkerchief folded and twisted round the handle, and a blade of 9 to 10ins long. Was Jack still in the yard when the club members began running for the police and he joined the throng, throwing this shouted comment in as a little jib? That would provide a practical method of escape. Pure speculation of course.

Cheers, George

[The Rookie Detective]

That documented phrase is a blind spot, for some of us.

I know, it's frustrating as nobody has acknowledged this clear discrepancy.

Up or down the road isn't the point; it's the fact that we have the phrase "from the club" that everyone appears to be avoiding.

George is stating there may have been multiple Mortimer type witnesses to explain the discrepancies

Herlock is focusing on up and down, but ignoring the phrase FROM THE CLUB.

This all feels like other reports from other murders that are ignored; the likes of Mrs Lilley and Charlotte Colwell from the Nichols murder, which are completely ignored under the shroud of "Read Inside Bucks Row"

Or...I could build my own objective understanding independently from bias.

It's precisely why I have never read a single Ripper book.

I am going to start a new thread shortly to try and cover this taboo area of the case.


RD

[Herlock Sholmes]

So we have Fanny Mortimer and a Mrs X


Evening News, October 1st

Some three doors from the gateway where the body of the first victim was discovered

Apparently Mrs X lived in Fanny Mortimer’s house?

…

Fanny - “..was preparing to go to bed’”

Mrs X - “I was just about going to bed, sir.”

…

Fanny - “..and immediately ran out.”

Mrs X - “.”I hurried out.”

…

Fanny - “I saw the body of a woman lying huddled up just inside the gates with her throat cut from ear to ear.”

Mrs X - “Then I see a sight that turned me all sick and cold. There was the murdered woman a-lying on her side, with her throat cut across till her head seemed to be hanging by a bit of skin..”

Both manage to see the neck wound in the pitch dark.

…

Fanny - “I had just gone indoors, and, when I heard a commotion..”

Mrs X - “I hadn't long come in from the door when I was roused.”

So two different woman (both apparently living in the same house) had been standing on their doorstep just before the commotion had both come back outside very shortly after on hearing the commotion.

…

Fanny - “If a man had come out of the yard before one o'clock I must have seen him”

Mrs X - “I think I should have noticed them if they had..”

…

Fanny - “..the only man whom I had seen pass through the street previously was a young man carrying a black shiny bag, who walked very fast down the street from the Commercial-road. He looked up at the club..”

Mrs X - “That was a young man walking up Berner-street, carrying a black bag in his hand."


In the Mrs X version which appears more dramatic we get the ‘cold steel’ mentioned of course which adds a bit of colour. Just like the ‘sick and cold’ comment.

…


So we have two different women living in the same house who both were on their doorstep and went back inside to go to bed then very soon after heard a commotion and immediately went onto their doorsteps. Both went straight to the yard and both somehow managed to see the Stride’s throat wound despite the pitch black and both mention seeing a young man carrying a black bag.

It seems pretty clear that one version is just a more dramatised version of the other. It’s strange that some who are usually reluctant to accept coincidences are quite prepared to ignore the ones between the two reports.

[FrankO]

Therefore, with Mortimer's position north of the club and the man she saw with the black bag coming from the club, it means she saw him walking NORTH toward her and away from the murder site, meaning it's likely the man with the black bag was the Ripper.

Hi RD,

There are some odd things attached to this, for me.

Why wasn’t it clear to either the woman or the reporter and informant that this man was likely the Ripper? If it’s clear to us, why wouldn’t it be clear to them? And for a reporter, with a nose for bringing 'news' and how, it seems all the stranger that he wouldn't have picked up on it.

You seem to state it as fact that she said he was coming from the club, but in reality she didn't. She stated that he “might have been” coming from the Socialist Club. It seems she's guessing to me. Why was that? Why wasn’t she sure of it?

After all, she lived close enough to the Club to claim that she must have heard the poor creature scream and that there was music & dancing going on there, so why wouldn’t she have actually seen him coming from either the yard or the front door of the Club?

It may be inconvenient, but the varying accounts suggested as coming from Mortimer are directly opposite in contrast in terms of the stated direction the man with the black bag was seen travelling.

If we’re assuming for a moment that this ‘artisan woman’ wasn’t Mortimer and that her story doesn’t represent a garbled version of what she might have heard from Mortimer, then we’d have a woman, who’d stood at her door for an undetermined amount of time, who went inside to prepare for bed when she was roused by a call for the police, i.e. just after one o’clock and who saw a man with a black bag coming from the club just before she turned in and who went north in the direction of Commercial Road.

If true, then Mortimer must have seen the same or a very similar man before that, which would mean that she first saw him pass her and the club and then turn east on Fairclough Street. And then some undetermined amount of time later the ‘artisan woman’ saw the same or a very similar man come from the club and walk north, past her, towards Commercial Road. This would imply that Mortimer was lying about the time when she went inside: she must have gone inside before Goldstein returned from his home to the Club and musn't have come to her doorstep again (as she didn't see Goldstein leave the Club as 'artisan woman' did).

If they actually were one and the same man & Leon Goldstein, then he first seems to have returned home, then he went to the club and minutes before one o’clock he left the club and went north, past a witness, towards Commercial Road.

If he was supposed to be the killer, then, of course, that’s at odds with all this:

Morning Advertiser of 3 October 1888:
“W. Wess, secretary of the International Club, Berner-street, called at our office at midnight, and stated that, it having come to his knowledge that the man who was seen by Mrs. Mortimer, of 36, Berner-street, passing her house with a black, shiny bag, and walking very fast down the street from the Commercial-road at about the time of the murder, was a member of the club, he persuaded him last night, between ten and eleven o'clock, to accompany him to the Leman-street station, where he made a statement as to his whereabouts on Saturday evening, which was entirely satisfactory. The young man's name is Leon Goldstein, and he is a traveller.”

Lloyds Weekly News of 7 October 1888:
“Reports have been circulated this week of a man having been seen in the streets with a black bag about the time of the murders; but suspicion was removed by a young traveller named Goldstein coming forward and stating that he was in Berner Street.”

The police report of Goldstein's visit to the police reads as follows:
“About 1 a.m. 30th. Leon Goldstein of 22 Christian Street, Commercial Road, called at Leman Street and stated that he was the man that passed down Berner Street with a black bag at that hour, that the bag contained empty cigarette boxes and that he had left a coffe house in Spectale Alley a short time before.”

Of course, Goldstein may have lied, but the thing that would remain very odd indeed is that nobody thought the man who’d been seen coming from the Club a couple of minutes before Stride’s body was discovered and who’d, oddly, passed a possible witness wasn’t suspected in the least by Mortimer or ‘artisan woman’, the informant who passed the story on to the reporter, the reporter himself or the police. Or that, other than through the ‘astisan woman’’s story, we know nothing of the trip of ‘shiny bag man’ from the club in the direction of Commercial Road and at a time very close to one 'o clock.

The most credible thing to me would be that either ‘artisan woman’ lied about when she saw this man or the informant or the reporter changed her timing of seeing him close to one o’clock. And that, thus, in reality it was Leon Goldstein who first went from the Club to the coffee house in Spectacle Alley (then seen by ‘artisan woman’) and later returned home, passing the Club when Mortimer saw him.

Cheers,
Frank

[New Waterloo]

Frank O highlighting Evening News 1/10

A MAN WITH A BLACK BAG!
" I suppose you did not notice a man and woman pass down the street while you were at the door?"
"No, sir. I think I should have noticed them if they had. Particularly if they'd been strangers, at that time o' night. I only noticed one person passing, just before I turned in. That was a young man walking up Berner-street, carrying a black bag in his hand."
"Did you observe him closely, or notice anything in his appearance?"
"No, I didn't pay particular attention to him. He was respectably dressed, but was a stranger to me. He might ha' been coming from the Socialist Club., A good many young men goes there, of a Saturday night especially."

If he was passing the house of the artisan wife who lives very close to Dutfields yard he would be heading towards no 40 the and the yard. He wouldn't be coming from the club.

Unless we are talking of the Socialist club on Commercial Road.

He could have been coming from there. She makes a very important comment and that is that young men often go to the Socialist Club on a Saturday night and the Berner Street Club required you to be a member. Were there young members of the Berner Street Club.

NW

[FrankO]

So we have Fanny Mortimer and a Mrs X


Evening News, October 1st

Some three doors from the gateway where the body of the first victim was discovered

Apparently Mrs X lived in Fanny Mortimer’s house?

…

Fanny - “..was preparing to go to bed’”

Mrs X - “I was just about going to bed, sir.”

…

Fanny - “..and immediately ran out.”

Mrs X - “.”I hurried out.”

…

Fanny - “I saw the body of a woman lying huddled up just inside the gates with her throat cut from ear to ear.”

Mrs X - “Then I see a sight that turned me all sick and cold. There was the murdered woman a-lying on her side, with her throat cut across till her head seemed to be hanging by a bit of skin..”

Both manage to see the neck wound in the pitch dark.

…

Fanny - “I had just gone indoors, and, when I heard a commotion..”

Mrs X - “I hadn't long come in from the door when I was roused.”

So two different woman (both apparently living in the same house) had been standing on their doorstep just before the commotion had both come back outside very shortly after on hearing the commotion.

…

Fanny - “If a man had come out of the yard before one o'clock I must have seen him”

Mrs X - “I think I should have noticed them if they had..”

…

Fanny - “..the only man whom I had seen pass through the street previously was a young man carrying a black shiny bag, who walked very fast down the street from the Commercial-road. He looked up at the club..”

Mrs X - “That was a young man walking up Berner-street, carrying a black bag in his hand."


In the Mrs X version which appears more dramatic we get the ‘cold steel’ mentioned of course which adds a bit of colour. Just like the ‘sick and cold’ comment.

…


So we have two different women living in the same house who both were on their doorstep and went back inside to go to bed then very soon after heard a commotion and immediately went onto their doorsteps. Both went straight to the yard and both somehow managed to see the Stride’s throat wound despite the pitch black and both mention seeing a young man carrying a black bag.

It seems pretty clear that one version is just a more dramatised version of the other. It’s strange that some who are usually reluctant to accept coincidences are quite prepared to ignore the ones between the two reports.

Indeed, Mike, it's an exaggeration to claim that the stories don't even share the slightest detail. That, at least, can't be said of the stories from "Mrs. Mortimer" and 'artisan woman'. As you've shown.

[FrankO]

If he was passing the house of the artisan wife who lives very close to Dutfields yard he would be heading towards no 40 the and the yard. He wouldn't be coming from the club.

Hi NW,

I don't understand this. Whoever saw 'shiny bag man' come from the club in Berner Street, would not see him walk towards no. 40 and the yard, but away from it.

That would only be true if you assume 'shiny bag man' was coming from the Socialist Club on Commercial Road. But we have no way of knowing if that's what she meant. However, since she's also saying "Lewis, the man who looks after the Socialist Club at No. 40, was there, and his wife." I think she was most likely talking about the Berner Street club rather than anything else.

Cheers,
Frank

[NotBlamedForNothing]

I know, it's frustrating as nobody has acknowledged this clear discrepancy.

Up or down the road isn't the point; it's the fact that we have the phrase "from the club" that everyone appears to be avoiding.

George is stating there may have been multiple Mortimer type witnesses to explain the discrepancies

Herlock is focusing on up and down, but ignoring the phrase FROM THE CLUB.

This all feels like other reports from other murders that are ignored; the likes of Mrs Lilley and Charlotte Colwell from the Nichols murder, which are completely ignored under the shroud of "Read Inside Bucks Row"

Or...I could build my own objective understanding independently from bias.

It's precisely why I have never read a single Ripper book.

I am going to start a new thread shortly to try and cover this taboo area of the case.


RD

It may be a taboo area or perhaps the problem is that some members have a fixed idea of what happened on Berner St that night, and the story of the man with the black bag walking north, just doesn't fit. Therefore, it has to be rejected.

Looking forward to the new thread.

[Michael W Richards]

I understand the reality. As does Jeff. As does Wickerman. As does Frank. As does…..everyone apart from you actually Michael. Perhaps it’s finally time that you admitted it.

I will admit that Im willing to put up with a fair bit to get at some real truth. Im not selling anything.

I do find it interesting that among the people who had some view of the street that last half hour....particularly with 3 Fannys now being contemplated, none of them saw Israel Schwartz, Broadshouldered Man, Pipeman or Liz Stride on the street. Even the witnesses that didnt see each other despite being in the same place at the same time didnt see any of them. The most curious part of that missing group is Liz Stride. In the most logical argument Liz Stride is likely in the passageway after being seen by PC Smith. He saw her at 12:35 and she is cut between 12:46 and 12:56 most probably. Presumably something happens with her before someone just walks up, grabs her scarf and slits her throat. And as has been noted, no-one...excluding the Sunday night witness who was not seen by anyone, saw anyone on that street but a young couple, as seen by Fanny and Brown, by the corner. And of course Leon...who coincidentally walks by when its probable Liz is being killed.

There is a keystone cops attempt to float a boat that is full of holes here, I imagine that the premise of that murder makes invisible people less troublesome. The premise of course is that despite no-one seeing a man on the street aside from Goldstein and the young man of the couple, somehow Jack the Ripper suddenly appears there.... to cut a woman just once. I guess when you are willing to suspend belief anything is possible really.

The evidence, unaltered evidence...indicates that if a man killed Liz Stride it is most probable he was on that same property where she is killed during that last half hour.

[Herlock Sholmes]

I will admit that Im willing to put up with a fair bit to get at some real truth. Im not selling anything.

I do find it interesting that among the people who had some view of the street that last half hour....particularly with 3 Fannys now being contemplated, none of them saw Israel Schwartz, Broadshouldered Man, Pipeman or Liz Stride on the street. Even the witnesses that didnt see each other despite being in the same place at the same time didnt see any of them. The most curious part of that missing group is Liz Stride. In the most logical argument Liz Stride is likely in the passageway after being seen by PC Smith. He saw her at 12:35 and she is cut between 12:46 and 12:56 most probably. Presumably something happens with her before someone just walks up, grabs her scarf and slits her throat. And as has been noted, no-one...excluding the Sunday night witness who was not seen by anyone, saw anyone on that street but a young couple, as seen by Fanny and Brown, by the corner. And of course Leon...who coincidentally walks by when its probable Liz is being killed.

There is a keystone cops attempt to float a boat that is full of holes here, I imagine that the premise of that murder makes invisible people less troublesome. The premise of course is that despite no-one seeing a man on the street aside from Goldstein and the young man of the couple, somehow Jack the Ripper suddenly appears there.... to cut a woman just once. I guess when you are willing to suspend belief anything is possible really.

The evidence, unaltered evidence...indicates that if a man killed Liz Stride it is most probable he was on that same property where she is killed during that last half hour.

Dr. Blackwell arrives at the yard and checks his own pocket watch - 1.16.
Lamb, using his own words, arrived at the yard 10 minutes before Blackwell got there - 1.06
Lamb could only have arrived at the yard a minute or after seeing Eagle - 1.05

Neither Blackwell or Lamb rely on the club for their living.

Louis arrived (with allowances for the Baker’s clock) at around 1.00
Spooner got there approximately 5 minutes before Lamb so approximately 1.00 (so with Spooner and Louis you have an insignificant 2 minute discrepancy) and Spooner doesn’t rely on the club for his living.
Eagle got back from taking his gf home at around 12.40
When does Gilleman inform him of the body? 20 minutes later…..so around 1.00.

You simply can’t get a series of events which tie up so perfectly. Again, game over.

PS….no timeline?