Berner Street: No Plot, No Mystery

[Fiver]

Thats right. With you, [U]Blackwell arrives sometime after 1:30.

Perhaps you should read what Herlock actually wrote :

"For me, if we look at all of the times given whether stated or estimated and we asked ourselves which one is the likeliest to have been accurate I’d suggest Dr. Blackwell. A man with his own watch (likely of good quality) for whom time was important and so it’s likely that he adjusted it regularly (probably daily). So Blackwell checked his watch and said that he arrived at the yard at 1.16. Then we have PC Lamb estimating that Blackwell arrived 10 minutes later. So by using what was likeliest to have been the most reliable time (Blackwell’s) we place Lamb at the yard at around 1.06. Which conforms to his ‘around 1.00’ for when Eagle approached him."

[NotBlamedForNothing]

But Smith was on a beat and he couldn’t give an exact time for when he passed. If a Constable saw a clock say every 15 or 20 minutes into his beat then there would always be a period when he was left to judge how long it had been since he’d last seen a clock which would leave plenty of room for error but we wouldn’t expect to see a Constable being out by too much.

Smith couldn't give an exact time for when he last past, because he didn't keep a journal. I think Smith would have seen a clock every time he was on Commercial Rd. Experience would tell him what the time was, based on where he was between two clock sightings. I think the room for error would have been quite small.

Are you sure that Lamb was just patrolling up and down Commercial Road?

Fairly sure.

Lamb: I was not on the [Berner-street] beat; but I passed the Commercial-road end of the street some six or seven minutes before I was called. When I was fetched I was going in the direction of Berner-street. Constable Smith is on the Berner-street beat.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Really not sure why you are having trouble sorting out who said what and instead you post material that is supposedly addressing posts from me, but......If you insist, Lamb can see Eagle at approximately 1. Ok? So. Now answer how Eagle got to that corner for 1am when a body hasnt yet been discovered by Louis..who again, was not seen by anyone arriving "precisely" at 1.

- In the same post you say ‘approximately 1.00’ then you proceed to ask a question that requires the time to be exactly 1.00. Approximately 1.00 could mean 1.05 (or 12.55 for that matter) An approximation isn’t a time so it can’t be used as one. So to answer your question specifically - Louis finds the body at approximately 1.00 and Eagle returns with Lamb at approximately 1.05.

On Issac K and Heschberg, once again........I havent said they were off on their times at all. Not ever. They came from inside the club where a clock would have been readily available. Ive also not said that Lamb was off on his time at all.

- To say that a clock was readily available is clearly misleading. Just because there was a clock in the building (has this actually been proven or is it an assumption?) it doesn’t tell us when either of them last saw a clock and when something occurs, like the discovery of a body, the last thing on those two men’s minds would have been to go and look at a clock so that they could accurately log the time. We can’t assume that a clock (if it existed) was always in view to the two men either. What we can assume though is that neither of them saw a clock immediately prior to learning about the discovery of the body because they would not have needed to estimate. The follow-on question is therefore an obvious one - when did they last see a clock? Also, how accurate was their estimation of the gap of time between them seeing the clock and learning about the body.

If you had read my posts, which clearly you havent, you would see that Ive supported Issac K, Heschbergs times as is, Spooners time...with a 5 minute allowance, Lamb as is, Johnson as is, and Blackwell as is. By insisting that Louis's arrival time of 1am is the accurate time, YOURE the one who causes Lamb, Johnson and Blackwell all to be wrong. You are arguing with yourself, so please dont pretend you are using my posted comments.

- I can’t understand why you feel that I’ve misquoted you Michael because I’ve responded directly to your posts. And it’s a little difficult when you claim to accept Lamb ‘as is’ when you clearly don’t. Then you claim that I insist that Louis arrival time was accurate when I’ve repeatedly said that the clock could have been wrong or not synchronised with others. All that I’ve stated is that unlike most other witnesses Diemschitz actually names the clock that he used and he stated the time as he’d seen it. Unlike others he wasn’t estimating a period of time between seeing a clock and an event. To combat this you have to resort to accusing him of lying for which there is no evidence. Indeed we have evidence to support him. Fanny heard a horse and cart pass at around 1.00. We can’t prove that this was Louis of course but how many horses and carts would have been travelling down this particular backstreet at 1.00am? The overwhelming likelihood was that this was Louis. We also can’t neglect to mention that no one saw or heard a cart in Berner Street after 1.00 and anywhere near to the time that you believe that he actually returned.

Your argument has the clock beginning at 1am when Louis says he arrives, then he checks the body, then he goes inside to see his wife, then he calls upstairs, then men...including Issac K and Heschberg come down to see whats up, then the men gather around the body assessing what to do, then Louis sends Issac K, Eagle leaves and Louis and Issac[s] go for help, when they are seen by Spooner.

So...mister got this all figured out...if Louis did arrive at 1, and all that activity took place, then what is the earliest humanly possible time that Eagle could be seen by Lamb at Commercial? By the way, Lamb said he saw 2 people, and that verifys what Issac Kozebrodski said about meeting Eagle and Lamb.
10 minutes after the cart and horse pull in? I believe that is very reasonable, probably faster than when it happened too.

So, with YOUR story.....Eagle and Issac MUST HAVE MET Lamb at around 1:10, and Eagle is sent to the station to tell them around 1:15. Johnson is called, and 10 minutes later is there, 6 minutes after him is Blackwell. So, in your "Solution..." what is the estimated earliest time that would Blackwell be there?

Thats right. With you, Blackwell arrives sometime after 1:30.

What time did Blackwell say he was there?

What time did Johnson say he was there?

What time did Phillips say he was there?

With your ingenious solution all of them were wrong on their arrival times by at least 15 minutes.

- So much wrong in one section. 10 minutes is a massive exaggeration. Half that at least. If the body was found at 1.00 Eagle gets to Lamb easily for 1.05. It could have been sooner.


Enters yard, checks the body, goes inside - 20 seconds.

Got candle, tells men in downstairs room, goes back outside - 30 seconds.

Checked body then ran of at once (his own words) for a Constable - let’s be generous and say a minute. Louis and Koz gone by 1.02.

Eagle goes soon after finds Lamb around 1.05.


No one is walking like they’re on the moon, no one stops for a cigarette or walks around the club.

And of course there’s another neglected fact. As I said earlier, the Baker’s clock could have been fast. So maybe when Louis got to the yard it was 12.58 by other clocks. We can’t negate things by using estimations or by nitpicking over a minute or two here and there.

With my recitation of what are the historically stated times by Issac K, Heschberg, Spooner..(allowing Spooner a 5 minute error for the reasons Ive mentioned before in the posts you either didnt read or understand),..., and Lamb, Johnson, Blackwell and Phillips, there is no need to subjectively adjust any of those times other than the 5 minutes for Spooner.

Did you understand that? YOUR story demands a severe 15 minute error in times given by the most credible witnesses there that night, Lamb, Johnson, Blackwell and Phillips. MINE doesnt require any of them to be wrong but Spooner, by 5 measly minutes. YOUR story is contradicted by the times of all those trusted witnesses, and also by Issac K, Heschberg and Spooner...whose times place the actual discovery around 12:40.

- And of this is predicated on an absolutely fundamental error which you refuse to acknowledge. That Lamb was estimating ‘around 1.00.’ My suggestion of 1.05 is ‘around 1.00.’ Which aligns perfectly with Diemschitz arrival at 1.00 (possibly with the Baker’s clock being a minute or two fast) Which aligns perfectly with Dr. Blackwell who Lamb said arrived 10 minutes after him. Again Michael, what is 1.16 minus 10. I’d suggest that it’s 1.06. Wouldn’t you agree that the likeliest time to be accurate in the whole story would be a Doctor’s watch? I certainly would. So the Doctor arrives at the most reliable time (1.16) and Lamb (in his own words) had been at the yard for 10 minutes. This seals the deal. Lamb categorically arrived at the yard at around 1.06. All times are secondary to this.

Youll note again that none of the trusted witness times need to be adjusted at all by accepting a 12:40 discovery. With my storyline.

- I’ll just interject at this point Michael on your use of the word ‘trusted.’ Apparently you get to decide who is or isn’t trustworthy? That’s a very convenient way of shaping a theory. It’s like taking out your enemies before staging a coup.

You are the one modifying witness times, I am the one stating that the majority of the times given by witnesses do not reconcile with statements given by the anarchists paid to be at the club and who live there. Hmm. Hard to evaluate who to trust here? Maybe try the unbiased authorities before the anarchist steward and his cronies trying to cover their asses.

- Fair enough. I give you the unbiased Dr. Blackwell carrying his own watch who specifically logged the time that he arrived at the yard - 1.16, 10 minutes after Lamb’s arrival - at 1.06 - Around 5 minutes or so after James Brown heard the men shouting for a Constable. It’s spot on.

Also, as an added bonus, none of these stories validate anything Israel said or the time he said he saw it.

If this doesnt sink in, I give,... have your Phantom Menace, have your criminal witnesses, have Louis arrive at 1 and at the very same time Lamb see Eagle blocks away. I know your wrong, I dont have to get your agreement. Its all there on paper.

- So just because the members were Jewish Socialists and just because a couple of them got into trouble with the police once this justifies treating them as pathological liars? Is that how we should view things? We choose those we like and favour then demonise the ‘bad guys?’ It’s certainly not an approach that I’d favour but obviously you’re free to adopt your own approach.


.

But I would ask that if you decide to question anything I post, please use what I actually said instead of what you normally do

- And I’d ask that you calm down Michael. In the grand scheme of things this little disagreement is hardly of earth-shattering importance is it? I find it a little strange though to be in a position where I’m on one side of a debate about a plot where everyone agrees with me and no one agrees with my opponent and yet the person who stands alone in favour of a plot argues in such a tone of superiority. If you have got this correct where are the people agreeing with you? In 6 years of posting I still haven’t seen one Michael. Doesn’t that ever give you pause for thought? If I had an opinion on something and everyone else thought that I was wrong I’d be thinking ‘perhaps I’m on the wrong track here.’

[NotBlamedForNothing]

For me, if we look at all of the times given whether stated or estimated and we asked ourselves which one is the likeliest to have been accurate I’d suggest Dr. Blackwell. A man with his own watch (likely of good quality) for whom time was important and so it’s likely that he adjusted it regularly (probably daily). So Blackwell checked his watch and said that he arrived at the yard at 1.16. Then we have PC Lamb estimating that Blackwell arrived 10 minutes later. So by using what was likeliest to have been the most reliable time (Blackwell’s) we place Lamb at the yard at around 1.06. Which conforms to his ‘around 1.00’ for when Eagle approached him.

We have Brown hearing the cries of murder sometime around 1.00 and Spooner saying that Lamb arrived at the yard 5 minutes after he did. Which again aligns closely with Lamb arriving at around 1.06.

So from a starting point of what was likely the most reliable time everything fits with a 1.00 discovery time followed by the known events.

If Lamb arrives at ~1:06, then clearly the following is not possible.

Smith: My beat was past Berner- street, and would take me twenty-five minutes or half an hour to go round. I was in Berner-street about half-past twelve or twenty-five minutes to one o'clock, and having gone round my beat, was at the Commercial-road corner of Berner-street again at one o'clock.

That would have Smith arriving no later than 1:02.

Smith: I was not called. I saw a crowd outside the gates of No. 40, Berner-street. I heard no cries of "Police." When I came to the spot two constables had already arrived.

It is obvious that Smith must arrive a few minutes or more after Lamb and the fixed-point officer. 1:10 would be a reasonable estimate, using 1:06 for Lamb as a starting point. Smith's words indicate that his last Berner St round trip was within regulation time for his beat - 25-30 minutes. Subtracting that time range from 1:10, we get him last in Berner St at 12:40-45. So, back to our favourite report...

It appears that shortly before a quarter to one o'clock she heard the measured, heavy tramp of a policeman passing the house on his beat. Immediately afterwards she went to the street-door, with the intention of shooting the bolts, though she remained standing there for ten minutes before she did so.

The problem is that we can’t know what she was doing inside her house at any given time and if I make a suggestion you suggest that I’m performing some strange manipulation when I’m not. People don’t always sit or stand in one position; they move around, they do stuff, they had outside loos. We can come up with any number of perhapses. Perhaps she heard BS man and thought that it was a PC. Then then did something in the house, went to the kitchen, went to the loo etc. The short incident occurred, then she went onto her doorstep.

Perhaps she heard BS man and thought it was a PC, but she didn't hear the other stuff? Given her familiarity with the sound of a passing PC, how likely is that?

Having decided you can jam Schwartz in, between Smith and Fanny getting to her door after using her outside loo at just the right time, there is still a big problem. You have to account for Stride's puzzling change of location. One moment she is across the road and up the street a few yards, talking quietly to a man. Fanny uses the outside loo and then goes to her door. So, do we assume that in this brief period, the conversation abruptly ends, and Liz takes up her position at the gates? It's a very jarring transition.

As I already mentioned, this scenario pretty much forces us to suppose that the BS man was the killer, and therefore possibly the Ripper. That also jars.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Nowhere does Lamb say he was not on a beat. And the records are full of beat police giving estimated times.

Why then, does he refer to Smith's beat, but in his case "I was on duty in Commercial-road"?

Lamb: All the fixed-point men ceased their duty at 1 a.m., and then the men on the beats did the whole duty.

In this case, Smith would have taken on the duty of 426H.

"My beat was past Berner- street, and would take me twenty-five minutes or half an hour to go round. I was in Berner-street about half-past twelve or twenty-five minutes to one o'clock, and having gone round my beat, was at the Commercial-road corner of Berner-street again at one o'clock." - PC Smith

The PC is indicating that his beat timespan has a margin of error - he doesn't always go around in exactly 27½ minutes. It has nothing to do with estimating times. When last in Berner St was calculated from subtracting 25-30 minutes from 1am. It was not a subjective estimate.

Either way, PC Lamb is giving a series of estimates and clearly stated "I had no watch with me."

He was much less precise than Smith, because he was not on a beat.

[Herlock Sholmes]

If Lamb arrives at ~1:06, then clearly the following is not possible.

Smith: My beat was past Berner- street, and would take me twenty-five minutes or half an hour to go round. I was in Berner-street about half-past twelve or twenty-five minutes to one o'clock, and having gone round my beat, was at the Commercial-road corner of Berner-street again at one o'clock.

That would have Smith arriving no later than 1:02.

Smith: I was not called. I saw a crowd outside the gates of No. 40, Berner-street. I heard no cries of "Police." When I came to the spot two constables had already arrived.

It is obvious that Smith must arrive a few minutes or more after Lamb and the fixed-point officer. 1:10 would be a reasonable estimate, using 1:06 for Lamb as a starting point. Smith's words indicate that his last Berner St round trip was within regulation time for his beat - 25-30 minutes. Subtracting that time range from 1:10, we get him last in Berner St at 12:40-45. So, back to our favourite report...

It appears that shortly before a quarter to one o'clock she heard the measured, heavy tramp of a policeman passing the house on his beat. Immediately afterwards she went to the street-door, with the intention of shooting the bolts, though she remained standing there for ten minutes before she did so.

If he passed at 12.35 and his beat on that occasion took 30 minutes that gets him there at 1.05. Factor in the synchronisation of clocks and there’s no issue.

Why is it obvious “ that Smith must arrive a few minutes or more after Lamb…?” We have no indication from Lamb as to how long he’d been there when Smith arrived so as far as I can recall so Smith could have arrived 30 seconds or a minute after Lamb for all that we know.

As an addition - how do we know that Smith didn’t have an issue or two to deal with on his beat putting him 5 minutes behind - making his beat take 35 minutes on that occasion?

Perhaps she heard BS man and thought it was a PC, but she didn't hear the other stuff? Given her familiarity with the sound of a passing PC, how likely is that?

Again, it’s where she was in the house at the time. I don’t understand why you’ve taken exception to this point in the past. Surely if anything is ‘unlikely’ it’s that she stayed in the same position? Kitchen, outside loo, upstairs back bedroom?

Having decided you can jam Schwartz in, between Smith and Fanny getting to her door after using her outside loo at just the right time, there is still a big problem. You have to account for Stride's puzzling change of location. One moment she is across the road and up the street a few yards, talking quietly to a man. Fanny uses the outside loo and then goes to her door. So, do we assume that in this brief period, the conversation abruptly ends, and Liz takes up her position at the gates? It's a very jarring transition.

I haven’t ‘jammed’ anyone in so why are you claiming that perfectly normal occurrences are somehow unrealistic? If I came to your house and knocked on the door but you didn’t hear me because you were in the loo would you later accuse me of not actually knocking the door saying ‘oh yeah, what are the chances of me being in the loo just as you called?’

As I already mentioned, this scenario pretty much forces us to suppose that the BS man was the killer, and therefore possibly the Ripper. That also jars.

Accepting estimated times/ Accepting estimate time periods/ Accepting unsynchronised clocks/ Accepting a poorly lit street it’s impossible to get to a version of events that we can be totally confident with.

[Herlock Sholmes]

I don’t think for a minute that Schwartz lied, whether for his own reasons or to serve as part of a plot, but I certainly think that it’s worth considering that he might have been mistaken.

So what if Schwartz saw an incident which had begun and ended before PC Smith passed at 12.30-12.35? Is it so unlikely that after hearing later that day that a body had been found at 1.00 he convinced himself that it must have been around 12.45 when he’d passed and that he must witnessed the victim being assaulted? Where had he been during the day? Had he been drinking? Would it be so surprising if his idea of time was off if he was recalling it after sleeping off a skinful of beer? Might this also explain, at least in part, the discrepancies between his Police and Star interviews? A memory clouded by alcohol?

Is there anything that might point to an earlier time for the incident apart from no one else seeing it? Possibly. If Pipeman was actually exiting the pub then isn’t it more likely that he was exiting not too long after closing time at 12.00 rather than 45 minutes after closing time (accepted of course that we can’t be certain that he actually exited the pub and not just the doorway)

The fact that the woman didn’t make a lot of noise might point to her knowing her ‘attacker.’ Some kind of ‘domestic?. A man trying to drag his wife/girlfriend home? A particularly obnoxious punter?

It’s speculation of course but I don’t think that we can dismiss the possibility of error on Schwartz part. It’s certainly vastly more believable than him being a planted witness.

[Fiver]

Why then, does he refer to Smith's beat, but in his case "I was on duty in Commercial-road"?

PC Lamb said "Last Sunday morning, shortly before one o'clock, I was on duty in Commercial-road, between Christian-street and Batty-street, when two men came running towards me and shouting." That is Lamb stating what part of his beat Lamb was on, not Lamb claiming he did not walk a beat.

PC Lamb referred to constables who patrolled a beat and constable on fixed-point duty. Lamb said "I am not on the Berner-street beat", which means that he was not on that beat, not that PC Lamb didn't have a beat to patrol.

Instead, you seem to be trying to create a third duty besides beat and fixed-duty, calling it patrol and meaning whatever you want it to mean.

Patrolling was walking a beat.

"I had been patrolling the beat continually from ten o'clock at night until one o'clock on Sunday morning." - PC Watkin, Eddowes Inquest

[Fiver]

He was much less precise than Smith, because he was not on a beat.

PC Smith and PC Lamb were both walking beats,

Smith was estimating times as well, and we have no idea who was more precise.

"Police constable William Smith, 452 H, said - Berner street was in my beat on the night in question. My beat takes between 25 minutes and half an hour to patrol. I was in Berner street about 12.35 and got back there about one o'clock. I was not called there but went in my ordinary round. I saw the disturbance outside the gates of No 40. I heard no cries of "Police." There were two policemen there. I do not remember passing any one on my way down Berner street. Having seen the deceased where she was lying I went to the police station for the ambulance. Mr. Johnston, Dr. Blackwell's assistant, arrived just as I was going away. When I was in Berner street at 12.30 or so I saw a man and a woman talking together." - 6 October 1888 Daily News

[Herlock Sholmes]

Assumption - That neither the couple that PC Smith saw (couple A) or the couple that Brown saw (couple B) were connected to Stride. Smith saw a woman of similar look and build in fairly generic clothing. We all accept that witnesses can be mistaken. Smith was just a man with no exceptional Holmes-like skills. Capable of error.

So…


12.32 Smith see couple A - a minute or two later they leave never to be seen again.

12.33 Eagle returns unseen by Lave who is near the print office

12.33 Fanny hears Eagle pass and mistakes him for a Constable and goes onto her doorstep.

12.40 Lave goes back into the club.

12.41 Fanny goes back inside (she estimates 8 minutes as about 10)

12.42 Stride enters Berner Street and stands at the gate

12.43 Brown goes for his supper. While he’s in the Chandler’s shop couple B arrive and stand just around the corner in Fairclough Street.

12.46 Brown passes couple B who then leave.

12.47 Schwartz follows BS man along Berner Street and the incident occurs.

1.00 Fanny hears Louis horse and cart.


This leaves a difficult to explain long gap of 9 minutes between Fanny going back inside and her hearing Louis.


So perhaps more likely…


12.32 Smith sees couple A - a minute or two later they leave never to be seen again.

12.35 Eagle returns.

12.39 Lave goes back inside, he was at the back of the yard when Eagle returned so he didn’t see him.

12.40 Stride arrives at the gates.

12.41 The incident occurs.

12.42 It’s over and the street is empty.

12.43 Brown goes for his supper.

12.44 Couple B walk along Berner Street to the corner. Fanny mistakes his footsteps for a Constable’s. They stand just around the corner in Fairclough Street out of sight.

12.45 Fanny goes onto her doorstep.

12.46 Brown returns and sees couple B. Walking across Berner Street takes 5 seconds so Fanny doesn’t notice him - either poor lighting or she was looking toward Commercial Road at the time.

12.47 Couple B walk on along Fairclough Street never to be seen again.

12.50 Goldstein passes on his way home.

12.55 Fanny goes back indoors.

1.00 Fanny hears Louis horse and cart.

[JeffHamm]

...

Lamb: I was not on the [Berner-street] beat; but I passed the Commercial-road end of the street some six or seven minutes before I was called. When I was fetched I was going in the direction of Berner-street. Constable Smith is on the Berner-street beat.

This is interesting. Regardless of what PC Lamb's beat was. I'm pretty sure he had a beat, as fixed point duty means he would have been stationary, which he isn't, and the alternative to Fixed point is patrolling a beat. Regardless, we know his beat didn't include Berner Street, but did involve Commercial-Road for some portion during which he would pass the north end of Berner Street.

Since he was met on Commercial to the east of Berner Street, and was at that point heading in the direction of Berner Street, he was heading west. So during his pass 6-7 minutes prior it sounds like he was at that time heading east.

What it suggests, though, is that on that easterly pass, there was no commotion at the club at that time.

That suggests, that the body was discovered, the club alerted, and the men go seeking the police during that 6-7 minute interval.

One possibility is that as PC Lamb is passing Berner Street, Deimshutz has just got his cart into the ally and is in the process of finding Stride (or is in the process of alerting the club - the one thing we can be sure of is that they haven't as of yet come outside and started their searches for the police though).

Alternatively, Deimshutz arrives after PC Lamb has passed Berner Street of course.

I'm not sure it makes a huge difference which scenerio one goes for.

PC Lamb was between Christian and Batty Street when the men contacted him. At a running pace of 6.1 mph, that would require about a minute for the men to get from the club to mid-way between those streets.

A year or two ago, George did a recreation of the Deimshutz's "pony shy and check to find the body, etc" and found that to do all that required about 1 minute 50 seconds (call it 2 minutes for easy numbers). Add another 1 or 2 minutes for him to run in, alert the members, for them to examine the body, before they head out to find the police. That would suggest the body was found say 4-5 minutes before PC Lamb was alerted by the club members.

The above presumes, of course, that the members that found PC Lamb headed north immediately. Some of the press reports suggest they all headed along Fairclough first, bringing Spooner back with them. To run on that search, and get back to the club, would take just over 2 minutes (about 2m 15 s), placing the discovery 6-7 minutes before PC Lamb was contacted.

That would place PC Lamb's arrival roughly 2 or 3 minutes after Spooner's arrival. Spooner estimates that PC Lamb arrived roughly 5 minutes later. When people estimate an interval to be around 5 minutes, the ranges of the actual interval tend to be 1m 38s to 15m 06s, with an average of 3m 37s. So if PC Lamb arrived 2-3 minutes later, that is well within the ranges of actual times associated with an estimate of 5 minutes.

Now, if the body was found 4-5 minutes prior to PC Lamb being alerted, and Dr. Blackwell arrives at 1:16 and roughly 10 minutes after PC Lamb, then PC Lamb arrives at roughly 1:06 (and was contacted 1 minute prior, so at 1:05ish) and the body was discovered 4-5 minutes before he was alerted, then that places the time of discovery at 1:00 to 1:01 if the men who found PC Lamb headed north immediately. If, however, they first went along Faircough as well, then the discovery would be more like 12:58-12:59. Either of those tie in nicely with Brown hearing the men run down Fairclough around 1 o'clock.

Since all of those times are with reference to Dr. Blackwell's watch time, I think it is reasonable to suggest that Deimshutz's "clock" could easily read 1:00 (or appear to from his vantage point on his cart) whether the "Blackwell" time is 12:58 through to 1:01.

Obviously, the above times are only estimations, but they are estimations that are derived from measurements of the distances and travel times, taking into account the error of estimations people make with regards to time intervals, and so forth. What emerges, though, is a timeline sequence of events that is entirely consistent with what people testified to.

There is also this from the Evening Standard (oct 1, 1888): "...It is reported that an arrest on suspicion was made last night in Southwark. ...", which could refer to the arrest made based upon Schwartz's information. Sadly, no further details are given.

We also get one version of Fanny's evening, where she says "I was standing at the door of my house nearly the whole time between hlf-past twelve and one o'clock on Sunday morning, and did not notice anything unusual. I had just gone indoors, when I heard a commotion outside, and immediately ran out, thinking there was another row at the Socialists' Club, close by....." In this one, she indicates she went indoors around 1, and shortly thereafter hears the commotion at the club. That too places the discovery of the body around 1 o'clock. Of course, there are other news reports where her details are quite different (only being outside on her door step for about 10 minutes, and closer to 12:35-12:45 type thing), and later hears a pony and cart go by. But while her time outside changes, none of them are inconsistent with her claim above that things started getting active at the club around 1o'clock.

Anyway, as always, there is always error associated with these times, but there's nothing to indicate there is anything problematic with saying that the discovery of the body was at, or within a couple minutes of, 1 o'clock.

- Jeff

[FISHY1118]

I don’t think for a minute that Schwartz lied, whether for his own reasons or to serve as part of a plot, but I certainly think that it’s worth considering that he might have been mistaken.

So what if Schwartz saw an incident which had begun and ended before PC Smith passed at 12.30-12.35? Is it so unlikely that after hearing later that day that a body had been found at 1.00 he convinced himself that it must have been around 12.45 when he’d passed and that he must witnessed the victim being assaulted? Where had he been during the day? Had he been drinking? Would it be so surprising if his idea of time was off if he was recalling it after sleeping off a skinful of beer? Might this also explain, at least in part, the discrepancies between his Police and Star interviews? A memory clouded by alcohol?

Is there anything that might point to an earlier time for the incident apart from no one else seeing it? Possibly. If Pipeman was actually exiting the pub then isn’t it more likely that he was exiting not too long after closing time at 12.00 rather than 45 minutes after closing time (accepted of course that we can’t be certain that he actually exited the pub and not just the doorway)

The fact that the woman didn’t make a lot of noise might point to her knowing her ‘attacker.’ Some kind of ‘domestic?. A man trying to drag his wife/girlfriend home? A particularly obnoxious punter?

It’s speculation of course but I don’t think that we can dismiss the possibility of error on Schwartz part. It’s certainly vastly more believable than him being a planted witness.

Hi Herlock

Even if we look at that senario regarding an eariler time Schwartz saw the attack on Stride ,as you say 12.30 /35 were still left with the same dilemma .

Who was around at ''that'' time to corroborate or witness the same attack .? I dont see the point in trying to make another time frame on Schwartz behalf just to appease non Schwartz believers !. I, like you [ i take it] dont have a problem with his statement and account of Strides attack , the police at the time had no problem or issue either .

The fact he was taken to the mortuary to identify the body as the women he witnesses being assaulted by B.S man speakes volummes, who would even do such a thing if it wasnt confirm his original statement.

A memory clouded by alcohol? ............Not out of the realms of possibility, if we only knew he was a drinker .

[Herlock Sholmes]

Hi Herlock

Even if we look at that senario regarding an eariler time Schwartz saw the attack on Stride ,as you say 12.30 /35 were still left with the same dilemma .

Who was around at ''that'' time to corroborate or witness the same attack .? I dont see the point in trying to make another time frame on Schwartz behalf just to appease non Schwartz believers !. I, like you [ i take it] dont have a problem with his statement and account of Strides attack , the police at the time had no problem or issue either .

The fact he was taken to the mortuary to identify the body as the women he witnesses being assaulted by B.S man speakes volummes, who would even do such a thing if it wasnt confirm his original statement.

A memory clouded by alcohol? ............Not out of the realms of possibility, if we only knew he was a drinker .

Hello Fishy,

I’ve never really seen it as an issue that no one saw the incident. I think that if it had taken place today and we had CCTV footage we would see that even starting from BS man and Schwartz walking along Berner Street the whole thing would only have taken a minute or so whilst the actual incident, from BS man meeting Stride to Schwartz turning into Fairclough Street we would be looking at 20 or 30 seconds.

I have nothing to back up the alcohol speculation of course but I always wonder when I hear of a guy out that late at night. It’s a ‘maybe’ and nothing more.

[The Rookie Detective]

Hi Herlock

Even if we look at that senario regarding an eariler time Schwartz saw the attack on Stride ,as you say 12.30 /35 were still left with the same dilemma .

Who was around at ''that'' time to corroborate or witness the same attack .? I dont see the point in trying to make another time frame on Schwartz behalf just to appease non Schwartz believers !. I, like you [ i take it] dont have a problem with his statement and account of Strides attack , the police at the time had no problem or issue either .

The fact he was taken to the mortuary to identify the body as the women he witnesses being assaulted by B.S man speakes volummes, who would even do such a thing if it wasnt confirm his original statement.

A memory clouded by alcohol? ............Not out of the realms of possibility, if we only knew he was a drinker .

If Schwartz's account was genuine then we wouldn't need to alter his timings to fit in.

The way to look at this is to NOT alter his timings and see what we are left with...

We need to keep his witnessing the assault as close to 12.45am as possible because that's what he claimed.

By that time Eagle was already back in the club
PC Smith had already passed
Marshall was nearly an hour earlier

If we can explain Lave, Brown and Mortimer then perhaps Schwartz's account fits in.

What we must realize though is that if Schwartz was truthful AND accurate BUT BS man wasn't her killer, then why did Stride not seek help or assistance AFTER she was assaulted?

On that basis, IF Schwartz's account is correct, then he witnessed the initial assault just before her throat was slashed.

That would then almost certainly eradicate Stride as a Ripper victim because the Ripper would not have attacked his victim with other witnesses around and then proceed to cut her throat.

He also wouldn't have stood with Stride in the rain for over half an hour "almost opposite" Packer and then cut her throat.

Don't even get me started on Packer

Ironically, Packer is one of those witnesses who ruins Schwartz's account.


If we strip this back and just run a timeline that stays faithful as possible to the times claimed by ALL witnesses, then it will demonstrate how the entire scenario just doesn't fit together...

And why is that?

The only reason why everyone tries to move the timings around is because we all know it doesn't fit if we base it on all the witnesses claims respectively.

I still haven't seen a single person display a timeline based on all the witnesses statements as they were claimed WITHOUT any alterations to timings.

That tells you everything you need to know.


RD

[Herlock Sholmes]

This is interesting. Regardless of what PC Lamb's beat was. I'm pretty sure he had a beat, as fixed point duty means he would have been stationary, which he isn't, and the alternative to Fixed point is patrolling a beat. Regardless, we know his beat didn't include Berner Street, but did involve Commercial-Road for some portion during which he would pass the north end of Berner Street.

Since he was met on Commercial to the east of Berner Street, and was at that point heading in the direction of Berner Street, he was heading west. So during his pass 6-7 minutes prior it sounds like he was at that time heading east.

What it suggests, though, is that on that easterly pass, there was no commotion at the club at that time.

That suggests, that the body was discovered, the club alerted, and the men go seeking the police during that 6-7 minute interval.

One possibility is that as PC Lamb is passing Berner Street, Deimshutz has just got his cart into the ally and is in the process of finding Stride (or is in the process of alerting the club - the one thing we can be sure of is that they haven't as of yet come outside and started their searches for the police though).

Alternatively, Deimshutz arrives after PC Lamb has passed Berner Street of course.

I'm not sure it makes a huge difference which scenerio one goes for.

PC Lamb was between Christian and Batty Street when the men contacted him. At a running pace of 6.1 mph, that would require about a minute for the men to get from the club to mid-way between those streets.

A year or two ago, George did a recreation of the Deimshutz's "pony shy and check to find the body, etc" and found that to do all that required about 1 minute 50 seconds (call it 2 minutes for easy numbers). Add another 1 or 2 minutes for him to run in, alert the members, for them to examine the body, before they head out to find the police. That would suggest the body was found say 4-5 minutes before PC Lamb was alerted by the club members.

The above presumes, of course, that the members that found PC Lamb headed north immediately. Some of the press reports suggest they all headed along Fairclough first, bringing Spooner back with them. To run on that search, and get back to the club, would take just over 2 minutes (about 2m 15 s), placing the discovery 6-7 minutes before PC Lamb was contacted.

That would place PC Lamb's arrival roughly 2 or 3 minutes after Spooner's arrival. Spooner estimates that PC Lamb arrived roughly 5 minutes later. When people estimate an interval to be around 5 minutes, the ranges of the actual interval tend to be 1m 38s to 15m 06s, with an average of 3m 37s. So if PC Lamb arrived 2-3 minutes later, that is well within the ranges of actual times associated with an estimate of 5 minutes.

Now, if the body was found 4-5 minutes prior to PC Lamb being alerted, and Dr. Blackwell arrives at 1:16 and roughly 10 minutes after PC Lamb, then PC Lamb arrives at roughly 1:06 (and was contacted 1 minute prior, so at 1:05ish) and the body was discovered 4-5 minutes before he was alerted, then that places the time of discovery at 1:00 to 1:01 if the men who found PC Lamb headed north immediately. If, however, they first went along Faircough as well, then the discovery would be more like 12:58-12:59. Either of those tie in nicely with Brown hearing the men run down Fairclough around 1 o'clock.

Since all of those times are with reference to Dr. Blackwell's watch time, I think it is reasonable to suggest that Deimshutz's "clock" could easily read 1:00 (or appear to from his vantage point on his cart) whether the "Blackwell" time is 12:58 through to 1:01.

Obviously, the above times are only estimations, but they are estimations that are derived from measurements of the distances and travel times, taking into account the error of estimations people make with regards to time intervals, and so forth. What emerges, though, is a timeline sequence of events that is entirely consistent with what people testified to.

There is also this from the Evening Standard (oct 1, 1888): "...It is reported that an arrest on suspicion was made last night in Southwark. ...", which could refer to the arrest made based upon Schwartz's information. Sadly, no further details are given.

We also get one version of Fanny's evening, where she says "I was standing at the door of my house nearly the whole time between hlf-past twelve and one o'clock on Sunday morning, and did not notice anything unusual. I had just gone indoors, when I heard a commotion outside, and immediately ran out, thinking there was another row at the Socialists' Club, close by....." In this one, she indicates she went indoors around 1, and shortly thereafter hears the commotion at the club. That too places the discovery of the body around 1 o'clock. Of course, there are other news reports where her details are quite different (only being outside on her door step for about 10 minutes, and closer to 12:35-12:45 type thing), and later hears a pony and cart go by. But while her time outside changes, none of them are inconsistent with her claim above that things started getting active at the club around 1o'clock.

Anyway, as always, there is always error associated with these times, but there's nothing to indicate there is anything problematic with saying that the discovery of the body was at, or within a couple minutes of, 1 o'clock.

- Jeff

Hi Jeff,

Excellent post. The times above, using researched figures from yourself and George, are right in line with my estimations and back up what would be called the ‘official’ version.

Didn't you once post a table illustrating ‘ranges’ in regard to estimating periods of time? I can’t recall where they were from, a study I believe, but is there any chance of you posting it again so that I can refer to it in future? Could you also mention the source please?

Thanks.