Berner Street: No Plot, No Mystery

[Herlock Sholmes]

So what we have is Fanny Mortimer saying that she heard a horse and cart pass at around 1.00.

Question - in a pretty much deserted Whitechapel backstreet a horse and cart is heard entering the street at around the exact same time that Diemschitz said that he entered the street on his horse and cart. So what is likeliest, a) the horse and cart belonged to Diemschitz, or b) Diemschitz lied (with no one seeing or hearing him arrive at any other time) and another horse and cart coincidentally showed up in this backstreet at just that time?

It’s not a tough one is it? The cart was Louis Diemschitz returning at around 1.00 just as he said that he did.

[Herlock Sholmes]

On that cart and horse sound, it would be interesting to see what people have decided happened to them once the mayhem began. They were not stabled there.

[Coroner] What did you do with the pony? - I left it in the yard by itself, just outside the club door.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Since there is no record of Israel Scwartz, or of his story...either in part or in full, in any identified documents regarding the Inquest into the death of Liz Stride, nor any press documents publishing the transcripts from the Inquest itself....the answer would have to be yes, wouldnt it? Why thats still debated is a puzzle.

Israel Schwartz, having given his story on Sunday evening, prior to the Inquest being opened, was not involved at all in the presentation of evidence gathered concerning Liz Strides death, nor any official documents concerning it. Some officials believed in him anyway.

He’s not asking you if you think that Schwartz wasn’t at the inquest; we know that he wasn’t. He’s asking you - do you think that you know for a fact why he wasn't at the inquest.

And if you answer yes I’d like to ask you to present your proof.

[Michael W Richards]

Mortimer also confirms that Diemshutz arrived around 1am.

Actually Mortimer confirms she heard a cart and horse while inside her house, its you folks that automatically have put Louis on that cart, not her. Same with the boot steps she heard, not only does she not know whose boots they belonged to, but both men and women wore boots at that time. All would sound the same on cobbles.

If she offers a suggestion as to what she may have heard...such as policemans boots, and the return of Diemshitz, thats just her interpretation of the sounds, not a confirmation that a policeman had walked past her door and she heard Louis arriving.

On that cart and horse sound, it would be interesting to see what people have decided happened to them once the mayhem began. They were not stabled there.

[Michael W Richards]

Michael, can we please put this whole inquest business to bed once and for all? Do you know for a fact why Schwartz wasn't called to the inquest?

A simple yes or no would be appreciated.

c.d.

Since there is no record of Israel Scwartz, or of his story...either in part or in full, in any identified documents regarding the Inquest into the death of Liz Stride, nor any press documents publishing the transcripts from the Inquest itself....the answer would have to be yes, wouldnt it? Why thats still debated is a puzzle.

Israel Schwartz, having given his story on Sunday evening, prior to the Inquest being opened, was not involved at all in the presentation of evidence gathered concerning Liz Strides death, nor any official documents concerning it. Some officials believed in him anyway.

[FrankO]

In terms of Smith's statements, I think the critical bits are that he says his beat takes between 25 and 30 minutes, and he was in Bernerns around 12:35 ish when he sees Stride, and re-enters from the north around 1:00 (these are all PC Smith time, which may differ from other clocks of course). That to me indicates that the distance between sighting Stride and his re-entry at the north end of Berner is almost a full cycle of his beat. Any of the looping versions, though, will greatly reduce the distance from the sighting to re-entry, and so the interval between the sighting and his appearance should likewise be much smaller. That is why I think he has to do both sides of Berner in a down then back up way. Whether he goes down the east or west side is unclear, but still under investigation to see if there is anything that sheds light on that question.

I see it exactly the way you do, Jeff (although I worded it differently).

[JeffHamm]

Hi Jeff,

I’ve done some actual measurements & calculations on the 5 examples that I have.

In my example 1 above there would be 1049 m/3446 feet between Smith turning into Berner Street from Commercial Road and him turning into Berner Street from Fairclough to patrol the other side of Berner Street going north, where he would see Stride & companion. And that would be without patrolling any of the side streets & alleys.

In my example 2 and 3 that distance would be 624 m/2049 feet.

Walked at a speed of 2.8 mph that would be almost 14 minutes between entering Berner Street from the north and re-entering it from the south in the first example and more than 8 minutes in the other 2 examples.

Then, I’ve another example where the difference is 1045 m/3432 feet and another where it’s 687 m/2256 feet.

Frank

Hi Frank,

In terms of Smith's statements, I think the critical bits are that he says his beat takes between 25 and 30 minutes, and he was in Bernerns around 12:35 ish when he sees Stride, and re-enters from the north around 1:00 (these are all PC Smith time, which may differ from other clocks of course). That to me indicates that the distance between sighting Stride and his re-entry at the north end of Berner is almost a full cycle of his beat. Any of the looping versions, though, will greatly reduce the distance from the sighting to re-entry, and so the interval between the sighting and his appearance should likewise be much smaller. That is why I think he has to do both sides of Berner in a down then back up way. Whether he goes down the east or west side is unclear, but still under investigation to see if there is anything that sheds light on that question.

- Jeff

[FrankO]

I would like to point out, that while I favour no overlap, the doubled section in the first is roughly 196 ft, and in the 2nd and 3rd around 140 ft. At a patrol speed of 2.8 mph, those only increase the total beat time by around 48s or 34s, respectively, so it's not a huge difference over a 25 to 30 minute patrol.

I think your working out that doing so results in a conflict with PC Smith spotting Stride and then arriving at the top of Berner Street, however, is the stronger evidence against such looping versions, with my arguments based upon minimizing overlap being viewed as consistent with that and possibly reflecting the underlying "rules" by which beat patrol routes were laid out. That "underlying rule" would be something to keep in mind when looking at other beats in other cases, which are also likely to be open to multiple possibilities in terms of exact routes and options, so one might favour those options that also appear to minimize any "doubling" even when "doubling" might result in a route that could fit the other data.

- Jeff

Hi Jeff,

I’ve done some actual measurements & calculations on the 5 examples that I have.

In my example 1 above there would be 1049 m/3446 feet between Smith turning into Berner Street from Commercial Road and him turning into Berner Street from Fairclough to patrol the other side of Berner Street going north, where he would see Stride & companion. And that would be without patrolling any of the side streets & alleys.

In my example 2 and 3 that distance would be 624 m/2049 feet.

Walked at a speed of 2.8 mph that would be almost 14 minutes between entering Berner Street from the north and re-entering it from the south in the first example and more than 8 minutes in the other 2 examples.

Then, I’ve another example where the difference is 1045 m/3432 feet and another where it’s 687 m/2256 feet.

Frank

[JeffHamm]

I would like to point out, that while I favour no overlap, the doubled section in the first is roughly 196 ft, and in the 2nd and 3rd around 140 ft. At a patrol speed of 2.8 mph, those only increase the total beat time by around 48s or 34s, respectively, so it's not a huge difference over a 25 to 30 minute patrol.

I think your working out that doing so results in a conflict with PC Smith spotting Stride and then arriving at the top of Berner Street, however, is the stronger evidence against such looping versions, with my arguments based upon minimizing overlap being viewed as consistent with that and possibly reflecting the underlying "rules" by which beat patrol routes were laid out. That "underlying rule" would be something to keep in mind when looking at other beats in other cases, which are also likely to be open to multiple possibilities in terms of exact routes and options, so one might favour those options that also appear to minimize any "doubling" even when "doubling" might result in a route that could fit the other data.

- Jeff

[JeffHamm]

Hi Jeff,

Below are some examples. It shows you're right in the sense that in all of them he has to redo some small part on either Commercial Road or Fairclough Street.



The best,
Frank

Nice, of the 3 you showed, if I were to pick one then I would go with the last one in terms of police objectives as it is sort of like covering the beat left to right then right to left, so doubling the rate at which the inner section gets covered, with only the edges reduced - but that gets made up for by a 2nd officer on a different beat.

I tend to favour no overlap, but there isn't a huge amount. But if it produces non-workable times as well, then that rules against it Good work.

- Jeff

[FrankO]

Hi Frank,

Yes, I see what you mean if he were to do some sort of loop like Berner then Batty then back to Berner type thing. For the internal streets, he has to cover both sides, while for the perimeter just the side that circles his area. Ie the south side of Commercial and the north side of Faiclough. I believe the beat path would avoid doubling if possible, and loops would double up on some sections. Also, as you say, the timings get out of whack. I think the most efficient paths end up being ones where he does all the internal streets by doing one side, then crossing iver and heading back to do the other. I could be wrong, but I don't see how he can do both sides in a loop without having to redo some other section of his beat, making it take longer to do a circuit than it needs to. So doubling is not efficient unless it can't be avoided, as with the nw bit to Gower.

- Jeff

Hi Jeff,

Below are some examples. It shows you're right in the sense that in all of them he has to redo some small part on either Commercial Road or Fairclough Street.



The best,
Frank

[JeffHamm]

Hi Jeff,

As I wrote in my post #754 to George, so far I've come up with 5 possible routes Smith could have taken with the going up & down one street not in one go. So, I don't think it's very difficult to construct paths that cover all of the perimeter without him going in both directions, but what these 5 routes would show is that there wouldn't be 25 to 30 minutes between the 2 important events that Smith described in his testimony (seeing Stride & companion and arriving at the top of Berner Street).

All the best,
Frank

Hi Frank,

Yes, I see what you mean if he were to do some sort of loop like Berner then Batty then back to Berner type thing. For the internal streets, he has to cover both sides, while for the perimeter just the side that circles his area. Ie the south side of Commercial and the north side of Faiclough. I believe the beat path would avoid doubling if possible, and loops would double up on some sections. Also, as you say, the timings get out of whack. I think the most efficient paths end up being ones where he does all the internal streets by doing one side, then crossing iver and heading back to do the other. I could be wrong, but I don't see how he can do both sides in a loop without having to redo some other section of his beat, making it take longer to do a circuit than it needs to. So doubling is not efficient unless it can't be avoided, as with the nw bit to Gower.

- Jeff

[The Rookie Detective]

Hi all


I have stumbled upon something rather interesting that I believe relates to Israel Schwartz.

It is a fragment of something that I feel could be extremely significant to the case, but it will take a little time to cross reference and formulate the data.

It may also be something that completely shifts the trajectory of the Stride murder, but at this juncture it is simply too early to tell.

I will endeavour to pursue what I have found and update in due course.

It will almost certainly be a matter of me supplying the data and then others to aid in digging even deeper.

Team effort and all that.


Please watch this space and I will aim to submit something of substance over the next week or so.


Enjoy your weekend y'all



RD

[FISHY1118]

I guess my estimation that you get it was incorrect. First off, the part I put in bold and underlined above.......the incredible irony of your lecturing anyone on making up theories without any substance or proof was not lost on me, or Im sure anyone who has read any of your nonsense about Jack The Ripper/Torso maker. You have built a house of cards, so its humorous you would critique others for suggesting contradictory "theories".

Schwartz isnt dismissed. His story is on record. Thats not what is being stated though, its that despite knowng his story the authorities saw no value in it for the Inquest into this death.

Israel knew Wess. Wess likely translated for Israel as well. Wess is an authority figure on that property, as is Diemshitz. So why would any of these men offer a story that has the most probable killer of Liz Stride come from off their premises. As I already said....last post....and prior to that, over and over again. Anyone who denies that Dimeshitz and Wess would have concerns about the club or that premises suspected of harbouring the killer is denying basic human traits, and .....(remember that other point? NOT ONE MAN SEEN BY ANY INQUEST APPEARING WITNESS ON THE STREET IN FRONT OF THE GATES between 12:35 and 12:55?)

You ask me what would motivate Louis, Wess or this wild card Israel Schwartz to lie about what they saw and what happened, and when. Its bleeding obvious why they would do such a thing....to deflect any suspicions on themselves. Because Strides killer was a real person, and no real person was seen on that street other than the young couple and Goldstein from 12:36 to 1am. So if he didnt come from OFF the property, where MUST he then have come from?

And what did Anderson say was the working profile of the unknown killer as of September? Yeah.....a poor immigrant Jewish man. Just like virtually all the men at the club between 12:35 and 1am. So they knew its not just this murder they might be suspected for.

When all else fails go the personal attack hey, hmmmmm , seen it all befor i guess.

You make very little sense with your post and you havent given one shread of evidence to show Schwartz lied to the Police twice during a police murder investigation .

So really what your doing is guessing ,speculating ,hypothesising and basically flying off the seat of your pant where Schwartz is concerned . Best you evaluate the evidence in this case a little more carefully , your looking at it as some major conspiracy, which it of course isnt .

[FISHY1118]

I am suggesting that Schwartz was the Ripper incognito


I am also suggesting that he relished being taken to the mortuary, so he could gain satisfaction from seeing his work up close; because he had to leave Stride in a hurry and unlike his other kills, he needed some warped sense of closure with Stride.

I am also suggesting that Parcelman and Schwartz were the same man and that he chose 12.45am because that was after PC Smith had gone and so he knew there were no other witnesses to counter his story.

If for example he had said a time earlier than 12.45am, then there was a chance that either PC Smith, Lave or Eagle could have indicated that Schwartz was lying.


If he was Parcelman, it would have been a case of knowing that when he killed Stride, there was a 90-second window that nobody observed him walking with Stride into the yard. That's because he had been with Stride in the lead-up to killing her. i believe she had no idea who he was, especially after having been kissing him previously.

There is also the unanswered question of where Parcelman went after being seen talking quietly with Stride.


It's also worth noting that in the very first press reports, PArcelman was the focus of the investigation.

But then along came Schwartz and Packer to muddy the waters


All of this is just my own opinion of course


RD

Well if thats your stance, Possibility v Probability . Possibility 2% Probability 1% that Schwartz was the Ripper based on the evidence at hand [IMO of course]