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Berner Street: No Plot, No Mystery

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  • Originally posted by Geddy2112 View Post

    The Missing Evidence documentary 38m 30secs states Liz Stride had her throat cut at 12am, does that help anything?
    Only to show that they make things up as they go along Geddy.
    Regards

    Sir Herlock Sholmes.

    “A house of delusions is cheap to build but draughty to live in.”

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Herlock Sholmes View Post

      That’s exactly it c.d. It’s only a problem if we assume that a) all estimate of times were spot on, b) that all clocks were synchronised, c) that all estimates of periods of time were spot on, and d) that all Press reports were accurate.
      And that any witness who deviated from an accepted time had to be lying or had some sort of ulterior motive for doing so.

      c.d.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by c.d. View Post

        And that any witness who deviated from an accepted time had to be lying or had some sort of ulterior motive for doing so.

        c.d.
        We definitely see a tendency toward that c.d. Witnesses can lie but they usually need a good reason to.
        Regards

        Sir Herlock Sholmes.

        “A house of delusions is cheap to build but draughty to live in.”

        Comment


        • Originally posted by The Rookie Detective View Post

          That's a fair point

          Stride, the alleged Ripper victim etc...


          There is one obvious way to incorporate Mortimer and Miss Letchford... AND Schwartz...

          And that is to consider that Schwartz was the only witness who had the balls to tell the truth.


          Could it be that the assault happened exactly as Schwartz said it did and at the time it did.


          And the reason why Mortimer seems to be at her door at random times and for random periods of time is that she could have witnessed the same assault.

          Imagine if you will, that Mortimer and Letchford and Packer were all drawn to their doors and saw BS Man assault Stride.


          That would then indicate that the locals were scared of telling the police what they really saw.

          As residents, Mortimer, Packer and Letchford were perhaps all aware that the club had a reputation.


          And so...

          Did nobody come forward and corroborate Schwartz's statement because they were too scared?


          That would then strongly suggest that the man who assaulted Stride was a member of the club; perhaps Lave or Eagle.


          That would then suggest that BS man then was also the man who cut her throat; because Stride would be the unluckiest woman in the world to be assaulted twice within 15 minutes.

          Meaning that either the Ripper was a Jewish club member, or Stride was NOT a Ripper victim.



          hmm....


          Was Schwartz the only brave witness?


          Or was he lying?


          Was he the killer incognito?


          Were Mortimer and Letchford got to, like Packer was when Le Grand was hired to put pressure on him to make up a story.



          When we look at modern crime, it is a fact that if there was a gang-related stabbing on the street and the murder was seen by multiple residents; there is a high probability that witnesses would be reluctant to come forward through fear of retribution from the gang.

          Most witnesses would likely say "I didn't see anything"


          Just like Packer did initially


          I find it interesting how Packer was seemingly singled out by Le Grand and Batchelor.



          On thing is for sure though; nobody, not even the police, are able to explain why Schwartz was the only witness to the assault of Stride and why nobody saw Schwartz come and go either.

          Nobody has yet to combine...

          Charles Letchford
          PC Smith
          Eagle
          Lave
          Mortimer
          Miss Letchford
          Parcelman
          Bs Man
          Pipeman
          Packer
          Schwartz
          Goldstein
          The other couple
          Stride

          We have a time window of 12.30am - 1am

          And at least 15 different people to fit into the chronology.

          That's not including the Ripper of course.


          well, here's a start...

          Charles Letchford 12.30am
          PC Smith 12.35am
          Eagle 12.40am
          Schwartz 12.45am
          Miss Letchford 12.50am (all quiet)
          Goldstein 12.55am
          Diemschultz 1am


          What about the other couple who were around BEFORE and AFTER the murder?

          And when did Lave go as far as the street?

          Where does Mortimer go into the timeline?

          And Packer who watched a couple for over half an hour?

          And Pipeman?

          And Parcelman?

          And Bs man who assaulted Stride?


          And most of these witnesses never saw each other

          And nobody saw or heard Stride being assaulted except for Schwartz
          Nobody saw or heard anything that Schwartz saw
          Nobody saw Schwartz



          And yet we still have people say there's no issue with the murder of Stride.


          If someone can show how this all fits in then that would be wonderful to see.


          The only LOGICAL explanations are...

          Multiple witnesses didn't have the courage to come forward and be as brave as Schwartz, who saw everything.

          Or

          Schwartz is lying for whatever reason and the other multiple witnesses are correct in their assessment that the night was quiet until the body of Stride was found.


          If you believe the former and support Schwartz, then the killer was a club member, the residents were scared and Stride was not a Ripper victim unless you believe he was a club member

          Or if you believe the latter, then the street was quiet, Stride was murdered in the darkness by the Ripper who had lured her there under a false pretense.


          Or there is a 3rd choice...

          Let's doctor the given evidence and multiple reports including inquest testimony and alter and shorten all the timings so as to try and squeeze everything in.


          The argument that we should trust in what the police believed at the time is not the optimum approach, because they were mostly mistaken and wouldn't have recognized a psychopath had they have interviewed him multiple times.

          The Yorkshire Ripper case is a prime example of how clueless and single-minded the senior officers can be.

          In 1888, they would have been next to useless in trying to stop the Ripper.



          RD
          Work on the possibility that the Stride attack could have lasted as little as 30 to 40 seconds, then its easy to fit in all the rest of the witnesses accounts given the inaccuracies and variables of time estimates.

          I agree on your assessment about Stride being unlucky to have been assaulted by B.S man and then 15 mins later killed by the Ripper.

          B.S man surely cut her throat, but he wasn't the Ripper that butchered Mary kelly.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Herlock Sholmes View Post

            I agree c.d. The fact that Schwartz couldn’t speak English might even have led him to misinterpret the seriousness of the incident. Maybe it was just a drunken BS man, who might even have known Stride in some way, trying to get her to go with him but she didn’t want to go? A bit of pulling and she pulled free of his grasp and ended up on the ground (as you suggest) then BS man simply berated Schwartz with a Lipski comment because BS saw him looking over and was accusing him of being nosey?

            I made a suggestion in an earlier post but it didn’t get any comment. I speculated that perhaps Stride wasn’t waiting in the gateway for someone. Maybe she was walking north and as she got to the gates she saw BS man approaching (someone she wanted to avoid) so she ducked into the gateway thinking (or hoping?) that he hadn’t seen her?

            We have a few possibilities and they’re all complete speculation of course but we know that the actual incident would have taken a matter of seconds so it’s not really a huge event to miss. It’s perhaps more likely statistically that BS man was her killer but it could have been the case that her killer was walking along Berner Street as the incident occurred. He might have been the ‘hero’ who scared off BS man before killing Stride. Maybe, what if, perhaps…
            Hi Herlock,

            I agree with the assessment by c.d. and yourself, that there was no assault. I think BSMan took her by the arm to attempt to lead her away from the yard and she pulled away, over-balanced and fell down. I think the three screams, that were no very loud, were but remonstrations by Stride directed at BSMan only.

            Your second paragraph is possible, but speculative.

            The perceived hero that possibly rescued Stride from the dispute with BSMan ccould have been walking along the street - Pipeman comes to mind, or he could have come from the club.

            Did you manage to find anymore information on Goldstein's membership of the Club?

            Cheers, George
            It's sad that governments are chiefed by the double tongues. There is iron in your words of death for all Comanche to see, and so there is iron in your words of life. It shall be life. - Ten Bears

            All those moments will be lost in time, like tears in rain. - Bladerunner

            ​Disagreeing doesn't have to be disagreeable - Jeff Hamm

            Comment


            • Originally posted by FISHY1118 View Post

              Work on the possibility that the Stride attack could have lasted as little as 30 to 40 seconds, then its easy to fit in all the rest of the witnesses accounts given the inaccuracies and variables of time estimates.

              I agree on your assessment about Stride being unlucky to have been assaulted by B.S man and then 15 mins later killed by the Ripper.

              B.S man surely cut her throat, but he wasn't the Ripper that butchered Mary kelly.
              You make an excellent point.

              The issue is that I agree and disagree with you at the same time.


              I think that Stride's MURDER would have taken 30 to 40 seconds...

              But the alleged assault on Stride as told by Schwartz was an open public display of violence and not the work of a serial killer.

              And not the work of someone who was an accomplished killer who could carry out an assault and leave the scene in 40 seconds.

              The assault carried out by BS Man, was not the work of Jack the Ripper.

              We often talk about M/O but the Ripper was not a man who would openly assault a woman in front of at least one witness in Schwartz

              We can apply the same logic to the man who allegedly bought grapes from Packer; he stood across the road almost opposite Packer for over half an hour.

              The Ripper would not have stayed on the scene for more than... 40 seconds.


              So by using your own logic of 30-40 seconds you are effectively ruling out BS man as the killer and nullifying the significance of the assault as nothing more than a man who threw her to the ground.

              Perhaps a club member, perhaps a pimp or gang member, perhaps even Kidney himself...but certainly not a calculated serial killer.



              ​RD
              "Great minds, don't think alike"

              Comment


              • Originally posted by The Rookie Detective View Post

                You make an excellent point.

                The issue is that I agree and disagree with you at the same time.


                I think that Stride's MURDER would have taken 30 to 40 seconds...

                But the alleged assault on Stride as told by Schwartz was an open public display of violence and not the work of a serial killer.

                And not the work of someone who was an accomplished killer who could carry out an assault and leave the scene in 40 seconds.

                The assault carried out by BS Man, was not the work of Jack the Ripper.

                We often talk about M/O but the Ripper was not a man who would openly assault a woman in front of at least one witness in Schwartz

                We can apply the same logic to the man who allegedly bought grapes from Packer; he stood across the road almost opposite Packer for over half an hour.

                The Ripper would not have stayed on the scene for more than... 40 seconds.


                So by using your own logic of 30-40 seconds you are effectively ruling out BS man as the killer and nullifying the significance of the assault as nothing more than a man who threw her to the ground.

                Perhaps a club member, perhaps a pimp or gang member, perhaps even Kidney himself...but certainly not a calculated serial killer.



                ​RD
                We dont know what motive B.S man had when he assaulted Stride, or his reason for killing her, or the means and circumstances in which he chose. [if indeed he was the killer] So we cant rule him out of her murder . I dont see how ,as you put it ''My logic rules him out'' . Not sure what your logic is for ruling him out based on what we already know . But certainly not Mary Kellys killer, which i think we both agree on. So not all bad.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by GBinOz View Post
                  Did you manage to find anymore information on Goldstein's membership of the Club?

                  Cheers, George
                  Woolf Wess, in his statement to the papers about Goldstein, stated that Goldstein was a member.

                  I found an article from the Commonweal, 1890, which mentioned Goldstein addressing a meeting in Hebrew-German, i.e. Yiddish.

                  Came across this reference to the Berner Street Club and Messrs. Wess and Goldstein once again acting in concert. From The Commonweal, January 4th, 1890:


                  I draw the inference that Goldstein’s English was lacking.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by GBinOz View Post

                    Hi Herlock,

                    I agree with the assessment by c.d. and yourself, that there was no assault. I think BSMan took her by the arm to attempt to lead her away from the yard and she pulled away, over-balanced and fell down. I think the three screams, that were no very loud, were but remonstrations by Stride directed at BSMan only.

                    Your second paragraph is possible, but speculative.

                    The perceived hero that possibly rescued Stride from the dispute with BSMan ccould have been walking along the street - Pipeman comes to mind, or he could have come from the club.

                    Did you manage to find anymore information on Goldstein's membership of the Club?

                    Cheers, George
                    Hi George,

                    Kattrup has answered the Goldstein question.

                    Although I mention someone ‘stepping in’ after BS man left I just wanted to stress that I’m not saying that BS man couldn’t have been our man. Odds would favour him I’d say. If we sort of combine the ‘no assault’ with BS man as the killer and add my speculation about Stride we might have….

                    Stride owes money (maybe to more than one person) and as she’s walking along Berner Street she spots someone that she owes money to so she tries to hide in the gateway. He sees her and asks for his money. She doesn’t make much noise because she doesn’t fear for her life. Maybe a black eye? He pushes her into the yard out of sight (maybe he wants to search her to check that she’s not hiding any money from him?) She has no money…he loses his temper and kills her.

                    As you rightly say though George, it’s all speculation.
                    Regards

                    Sir Herlock Sholmes.

                    “A house of delusions is cheap to build but draughty to live in.”

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by The Rookie Detective View Post
                      The reason why there are so many versions is that NONE of them work when we try to incorporate all of the witnesses being correct and truthful.

                      If there was only 1 timeline possible, then that would make more sense and it should all fit together if it is the truth.

                      The reason why it's difficult to construct a viable timeline is because it just doesn't all fit.
                      Hi RD,

                      In 2020 I started a thread, Sequence of comings & goings - Stride - Casebook: Jack the Ripper Forums​, about the comings & goings of the witnesses in Stride's case. The only one I haven't included in the periode immediately before the discovery of Stride's body is Florence Letchford. I would now put her after Mortimer coming to her doorstep and then going back inside before Goldstein passed through the street. Later, in my own notes, I've added some points between 16 and 20 - nothing of great importance, so if you want to know, just let me know.

                      See what you think of it.

                      The best,
                      Frank
                      Last edited by FrankO; 04-21-2024, 10:16 AM.
                      "You can rob me, you can starve me and you can beat me and you can kill me. Just don't bore me."
                      Clint Eastwood as Gunny in "Heartbreak Ridge"

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Kattrup View Post

                        Woolf Wess, in his statement to the papers about Goldstein, stated that Goldstein was a member.

                        I found an article from the Commonweal, 1890, which mentioned Goldstein addressing a meeting in Hebrew-German, i.e. Yiddish.

                        Came across this reference to the Berner Street Club and Messrs. Wess and Goldstein once again acting in concert. From The Commonweal, January 4th, 1890:


                        I draw the inference that Goldstein’s English was lacking.
                        Thanks Kattrup.

                        Can we be certain that the L. Goldstein addressing the meeting was Leon though?

                        Regards

                        Sir Herlock Sholmes.

                        “A house of delusions is cheap to build but draughty to live in.”

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Herlock Sholmes View Post

                          Thanks Kattrup.

                          Can we be certain that the L. Goldstein addressing the meeting was Leon though?
                          No we cannot. I personally think it was.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Kattrup View Post
                            No we cannot. I personally think it was.
                            There certainly has to be a chance that it was.
                            Regards

                            Sir Herlock Sholmes.

                            “A house of delusions is cheap to build but draughty to live in.”

                            Comment


                            • I agree with the assessment by c.d. and yourself, that there was no assault. I think BSMan took her by the arm to attempt to lead her away from the yard and she pulled away, over-balanced and fell down. I think the three screams, that were no very loud, were but remonstrations by Stride directed at BSMan only.

                              Hello George,

                              Just to be clear, I never said there was no assault. I only mentioned the accidental falling as one possibility. It is also certainly possible that he did want to shove her and did so intentionally. My point remains however that this, in my opinion, was simply a little street hassle and that the B.S. man was not her killer.

                              c.d.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by c.d. View Post
                                I agree with the assessment by c.d. and yourself, that there was no assault. I think BSMan took her by the arm to attempt to lead her away from the yard and she pulled away, over-balanced and fell down. I think the three screams, that were no very loud, were but remonstrations by Stride directed at BSMan only.

                                Hello George,

                                Just to be clear, I never said there was no assault. I only mentioned the accidental falling as one possibility. It is also certainly possible that he did want to shove her and did so intentionally. My point remains however that this, in my opinion, was simply a little street hassle and that the B.S. man was not her killer.

                                c.d.
                                Hi c.d.,

                                Apologies for the poor choice of wording. Both Herlock and yourself were offering an alternative possibility, which I consider a strong probability.

                                Cheers, George
                                It's sad that governments are chiefed by the double tongues. There is iron in your words of death for all Comanche to see, and so there is iron in your words of life. It shall be life. - Ten Bears

                                All those moments will be lost in time, like tears in rain. - Bladerunner

                                ​Disagreeing doesn't have to be disagreeable - Jeff Hamm

                                Comment

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