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  • Originally posted by c.d. View Post
    And nothing he claims he saw, or in fact his own presence there, is confirmed or affirmed by any other witness statement.

    So does that simply cast doubt on the truthfulness of his statement or does it automatically confirm that he was lying?

    c.d.
    Exactly c.d. Corroboration is always a bonus but in the real world it’s not always available. Do we all go around disbelieving anyone without it? Or do we simply accept the possibility or error or dishonesty whilst accepting that the majority of witnesses give their evidence honestly. And very few people deliberately and dishonestly place themselves at the scene of a murder with no witnesses to prove that he wasn’t involved.

    Do you ever feel on some points that common sense has left the building c.d?
    Regards

    Sir Herlock Sholmes.

    “A house of delusions is cheap to build but draughty to live in.”

    Comment


    • Do you ever feel on some points that common sense has left the building c.d?

      That would seem to imply that it was there to begin with would it not?

      Seriously though, I have noticed an increase in the tendency towards an if A then B approach to various aspects of the case. As illustrated here, If A (Schwartz's statement is not corroborated) then B (he must have been lying). But the reality is that he might have been lying but also that he might have been telling the truth. That is what common sense would tell us. An if A then B approach is just way too simplistic for this case where shades of grey abound.

      c.d.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by c.d. View Post
        Do you ever feel on some points that common sense has left the building c.d?

        That would seem to imply that it was there to begin with would it not?

        Seriously though, I have noticed an increase in the tendency towards an if A then B approach to various aspects of the case. As illustrated here, If A (Schwartz's statement is not corroborated) then B (he must have been lying). But the reality is that he might have been lying but also that he might have been telling the truth. That is what common sense would tell us. An if A then B approach is just way too simplistic for this case where shades of grey abound.

        c.d.
        Couldn’t agree more c.d. Yes, it would have been preferable if someone else had seen this very short incident but we can’t automatically jump to ‘well it probably didn’t happen.’ When we consider that the majority of witnesses are honest then that immediately increases the odds of him telling the truth but it’s not conclusive proof of course. Then we would have to ask a) why he might have lied or b) could he have been mistaken.

        As far as b) goes I’d suggest that ‘mistaken’ is at least a possibility. He might have simply got his time wrong after seeing an unconnected incident that occurred before 12.30 and he mistakenly connected it to the murder and thought that it must have been at around 12.45.

        I’d say that it’s also at least a possibility that his inability to speak English might have led him to misinterpret the nature of the incident. Some kind of ‘domestic’ or even some drunken horseplay.

        As for a) it’s far more unlikely that he would have lied unless we assume that he was incredibly stupid. That he was so desperate for his 15 minutes of fame he put himself alone at the scene of a murder with no one to back up that he wasn’t the killer. The suggestion that he lied as part of a plot is the stuff of novels of course and is not supported by the evidence.

        So the likelihood is extremely high that he told what he thought was the truth. Added to this we have the experienced and competent Abberline, no doubt used to liars and time wasters, having no doubt about his honesty. I don’t understand this ‘campaign’ against Schwartz. He saw a 30 second incident in a dimly lit back street after midnight which only needed to have been deserted for around 90 seconds to 2 minutes for Stride, BS man, Pipeman and Schwartz to have gone unnoticed from the moment that they entered Berner Street until the moment they left.
        Regards

        Sir Herlock Sholmes.

        “A house of delusions is cheap to build but draughty to live in.”

        Comment


        • I don’t understand this ‘campaign’ against Schwartz.

          Nor do I and it is most certainly a "campaign."

          c.d.

          Comment


          • Hello Herlock,

            You also see this if A then B thinking in the following:

            If people are incorrect in their times, it can only mean they are lying.

            If the club member had concerns about their livelihood and the shutting of the club then they had to have lied.

            If Schwartz did not appear at the inquest then it can only mean he was not believed.

            If B.S. man did assault Stride then he had to be her killer.

            The list goes on and on.

            c.d.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by c.d. View Post
              Hello Herlock,

              You also see this if A then B thinking in the following:

              If people are incorrect in their times, it can only mean they are lying.

              If the club member had concerns about their livelihood and the shutting of the club then they had to have lied.

              If Schwartz did not appear at the inquest then it can only mean he was not believed.

              If B.S. man did assault Stride then he had to be her killer.

              The list goes on and on.

              c.d.
              Hi c.d.

              There’s certainly a pattern of assumptions or at least partial assumptions. People can lie and people can be mistaken but there’s a tendency to assume (especially when it’s convenient to a theory) Errors and discrepancies occur in all cases. When recalling events people have imperfect memories; especially under stressful/unusual circumstances like the discovery of a body. Even today, with all of our technology and the preponderance of clocks, watches and mobile phones we still see various sources being poorly synchronised. My iPad says that it’s 11.04, my mobile phone says 11.06, the clock on my hi-fi says 11.06, the wall clock says 11.03, the clock on the microwave says 11.01! My own fault for not synchronising them but it’s never an issue in my house. In Berner Street, to us 135 years later, it’s become an issue but it shouldn’t be. We shouldn’t be ‘eliminating’ on the basis of a few minutes here or there.
              Regards

              Sir Herlock Sholmes.

              “A house of delusions is cheap to build but draughty to live in.”

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Michael W Richards View Post

                Ahh. I see. The act of merely providing a statement infers that the information is not just "alleged", but presumed to be the facts? When a witness "alleges" something that can be verified by corroborative witness accounts then it becomes more "credible", but its still just "alleged".

                Evidence establishes, and statements contribute to that evidence. So yes, Israel is part of the evidence taken in this investigation,.. not from the scene of the crime or at the time of the crime, by virtue of some translated remarks made at the station much later that night. And nothing he claims he saw, or in fact his own presence there, is confirmed or affirmed by any other witness statement.

                Comments made by investigators about his statement mean nothing towards establishing the veracity of his account. These investigators said lots of things, many without any substantive proof. Just like Israels statement was.
                So by that logic all witnesses are Alledged.

                I will endeavor to put that in my future post on the topic. Regards.


                Comment


                • Originally posted by Herlock Sholmes View Post
                  So the likelihood is extremely high that he told what he thought was the truth. Added to this we have the experienced and competent Abberline, no doubt used to liars and time wasters, having no doubt about his honesty. I don’t understand this ‘campaign’ against Schwartz. He saw a 30 second incident in a dimly lit back street after midnight which only needed to have been deserted for around 90 seconds to 2 minutes for Stride, BS man, Pipeman and Schwartz to have gone unnoticed from the moment that they entered Berner Street until the moment they left.
                  It's particularly baffling that the person trying hardest to discount Schwartz doesn't believe Stride was a Ripper victim. Schwartz' account, if true, is one of the best pieces of evidence that Stride was not killed by the Ripper - BS man draws far more attention to himself and is far less successful at manhandling and silencing Stride than any of the other murders attributed to the Ripper.

                  "The full picture always needs to be given. When this does not happen, we are left to make decisions on insufficient information." - Christer Holmgren

                  "Unfortunately, when one becomes obsessed by a theory, truth and logic rarely matter." - Steven Blomer

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by FrankO View Post
                    Hi Michael,

                    First of all, if you follow the evidence, then you'd say that Johnson would have arrived in the yard at 1:12 - 1:13 am, because he's qouted as having said: "I had no watch with me, but Dr. Blackwell looked at his when he arrived, and the time was 1.16 a.m. I preceded him by three or four minutes.​" This is very clear & precise and not 6 minutes.

                    Then there's the Irish Times of 1 October that reads: "The information of the crime reached Leman street Police Station at ten minutes past 1 o'clock...". That information reached them in the form of Eagle. As you say, Lamb sent Eagle for the station very shortly after they arrived at the crime scene. But, as Herlock pointed out, not to fetch Johnson, but to fetch inspector Pinhorn.
                    This is an important piece of information, as the clocks at Police stations were regulated by telegraph and were set precisely to GMT.
                    Anyway, it would have taken Eagle some 5 minutes to arrive at the station, so if he arrived there close to 1:10, then he left the crime scene close to 1:05.
                    Google maps shows it takes 8 or 9 minutes to walk from 40 Henriques St to the site of the Leman St Police Station in 1888, so Eagle would have left the crime scene a minute or two after 1am. Lamb's testimony appears to indicate that he sent the police officer to the doctor and Eagle to Leman St at the same time, and I think that he would have spent a minute or two after his arrival in assessing the situation before despatching these messengers. Google maps indicates a 3 minute walk to the doctor's surgery, which tallies with Johnson's arrival of the police officer at a few minutes past one. I am unable to agree with Herlock's assessment that a few minutes past one means 1:10, apparently because that was the time that Blackwell claimed the police officer arrived. IMO Johnson checked the Practice clock, noting a time between 1:00 and 1:05, which agrees with police testimony, and Blackwell was mistaken in his time of 1:10.
                    Then we have Lamb saying that he arrived at the crime scene 10 to 12 minutes before Blackwell arrived. According to Blackwell's watch, at least, it would have been 1:04 to 1:06 am then.
                    As I showed in my post # 516, Lamb, and Diemshitz, mistook Johnson for Blackwell, so Lamb is actually referring to his arrival at the scene as 10 to 12 minutes before Johnson, who arrived 3 to 4 minutes before Blackwell. This brings Lamb's arrival back to a minute or two after one. Lamb testified that he first saw Eagle about 1am, or shortly before. He testified that he ran to the scene from the vicinity of Blackwell's surgery, probably taking about two minutes, which tallies with the dispatch of the police office and Eagle.

                    The 1:05 goes very well with the above. The 1:10 not so good, as evidenced by the Irish Times of 1 October.
                    IMO, around 1am is closer to the mark, and fits the Irish Times of 1 Oct..

                    Again, as Herlock has pointed out, Eagle was sent for the police station to fetch the inspector.



                    Which is exacly what happened according to the Irish Times.

                    If you can point out something that isn't correct, then let me know.

                    All the best,
                    Frank
                    Hi Frank,

                    Hope you will forgive my taking the liberty of responding to the invitation that you extended to Michael.

                    It appears to me that Lamb was correct in his time of first seeing Eagle at about 1am, or shortly before. It is interesting that in the Irish Times of 1 Oct. notes Diemshitz as saying:
                    "A member named Isaacs went down into the yard with me, and we struck a match. We saw blood right from the gate up the yard Then we both went for the police, but unfortunately it was several minutes before we could find a constable. At last another member of the club named Eagle, who ran out after us and went in a different direction, found one in Commercial road.".
                    There is also a commentary of :
                    "The search was for some time fruitless. At last, however, after considerable delay, a constable was found in Commercial road.".
                    What period of time can be attached to the terms "several minutes" and "considerable delay"? The dictionary definition of the former is:
                    ​Few is used the same way as couple and also for a number slightly greater than a couple. Several is usually used for a number greater than a couple and a few.
                    Could we conclude perhaps four or five minutes, taking the discovery time back to around 12:55, or a little earlier?​ How Long had Stride been dead when her body was discovered, and bearing in mind that Blackwell testified that "She would have bled to death comparatively slowly​ "​, how long before that was she actually attacked? (rhetorical question alert ).

                    Best regards, George
                    It's sad that governments are chiefed by the double tongues. There is iron in your words of death for all Comanche to see, and so there is iron in your words of life. It shall be life. - Ten Bears

                    All those moments will be lost in time, like tears in rain. - Bladerunner

                    ​Disagreeing doesn't have to be disagreeable - Jeff Hamm

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by GBinOz View Post
                      Google maps shows it takes 8 or 9 minutes to walk from 40 Henriques St to the site of the Leman St Police Station in 1888, so Eagle would have left the crime scene a minute or two after 1am.
                      Hi George,

                      I prefer to go by the distance and see where various walking speeds take me, rather than taking “Google Maps’ word” for it.

                      The southern route, which is the one Smith took, is the one I think Eagle would have taken. It’s about 510 m/558 yards. Walked at a slowish speed of 3 mph/4.8 kmph, it would have been covered in 6 minutes and 20 seconds. Walked at a brisk speed of 3.7 mph/6 kmph, it would have taken 5 minutes and 6 seconds to cover that distance.

                      The northern route was about 610 m/667 yards. Walked at 3 mph/4.8 kmph, it would be covered in 7 minutes and 35 seconds. Walked at a speed of 3.7 mph/6 kmph, it would be covered in 6 minutes and 6 seconds.

                      Lamb's testimony appears to indicate that he sent the police officer to the doctor and Eagle to Leman St at the same time, and I think that he would have spent a minute or two after his arrival in assessing the situation before despatching these messengers.
                      Two minutes seems a very long to me. Also, we have Lamb quoted as saying: “I at once sent the other constable for the nearest doctor. I also sent a young man who was standing by to the police-station to inform the inspector of the circumstance.” (DN of 3 October). And there are a number of other newspapers writing that he did that ‘immediately’ or ‘at once’. So, my take is that it would have rather have been around 30 seconds tops.

                      Google maps indicates a 3 minute walk to the doctor's surgery, which tallies with Johnson's arrival of the police officer at a few minutes past one.
                      That would be going very slow. Blackwell’s residence was about 160 m/175 yards from Dutfield’s Yard. The speed that Google Maps indicates would be about 2 mph/3.2 kmph. Walking at a speed of 3 mph/4.8 kmph, it would have taken 2 minutes to arrive there. Walking at a speed of 3.7 mph/6 kmp, it would have taken 1 minute and 36 seconds.

                      As I showed in my post # 516, Lamb, and Diemshitz, mistook Johnson for Blackwell, so Lamb is actually referring to his arrival at the scene as 10 to 12 minutes before Johnson, who arrived 3 to 4 minutes before Blackwell. This brings Lamb's arrival back to a minute or two after one.
                      As far as I see it, you haven’t showed that, George. You’ve written that it was so, but that’s not showing it. From Diemshutz’s it seems clear to me that he is talking about Johnson, because he stated he saw him undo Stride’s dress, which is corroborated by Johnson’s testimony: he was the one to do that. But this doesn’t go for Lamb. He specifically named Blackwell as the first doctor to arrive and I’m supposing that he would have been familiar with Blackwell. If you think the ‘closing the gate’ thing clinches it, then I disagree in the sense that it might suggest it, but, then again, it might not. For example, if you read Lamb’s testimony in the Times of 3 October or the Morning Advertiser, it seems he saying that he had the gates closed just after Blackwell arrived, while he was examining the body. In others he states that he did that right before inspector Pinhorn arrived and he arrived shortly after Blackwell.

                      But I have no problem with Lamb mistaking Johnson for Blackwell. If so, then Lamb would have arrived 10 to 12 minutes before Blackwell’s assistant, who arrived 3 or 4 minutes before 1:16. At the earliest that would be at 1:00, at the latest Lamb arrived in the yard at 1:03. To be clear, we’re only talking about what time it would have been on Blackwell’s watch.

                      Could we conclude perhaps four or five minutes, taking the discovery time back to around 12:55, or a little earlier?
                      I have no problem with 12:55, give or take a minute. Let’s assume 12:55 for now.

                      Let’s go by your estimate that it would take approximately 1 minute 50 between Diemshutz arriving on his cart and him running out of the yard. Let’s make it 2.
                      Then Diemshutz and Kozebrodski running through Fairclough as far as Grove Street and then return to the yard. A round trip would have been 300 m/328 yards. Running at an average speed of 6.7 mph/10.8 kmph, it would have them 1 minute and 40 seconds, but let’s make that 2 minutes.

                      Let’s say that Eagle only left the yard after, at least, Kozebrodski’s return and that his round trip to Lamb would have taken 4 minutes, then Lamb would have been called by Eagle at 1:01 and Lamb & Co. would have arrived in the yard at 1:03.

                      If one, however, believes (as I do), that Eagle left the yard perhaps half a minute after Diemshutz, then 1 and a half minute would be shaved of this 1:03 am and we would have Lamb & Co arrive at 1:01:30.

                      The earlier anybody thinks that Lamb & Co. arrived in the yard, the earlier Eagle is sent for the station, the bigger the gap between Eagle being sent from the yard and him arriving at the station. My view is that it shouldn’t be more than 5-6 minutes. Anything more would become incredible. To me, anyway.

                      Anyway, I think it probably took around 5-6 minutes, maybe even a little longer.

                      Cheers,
                      Frank
                      Attached Files
                      "You can rob me, you can starve me and you can beat me and you can kill me. Just don't bore me."
                      Clint Eastwood as Gunny in "Heartbreak Ridge"

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by FrankO View Post
                        Hi Michael,

                        First of all, if you follow the evidence, then you'd say that Johnson would have arrived in the yard at 1:12 - 1:13 am, because he's qouted as having said: "I had no watch with me, but Dr. Blackwell looked at his when he arrived, and the time was 1.16 a.m. I preceded him by three or four minutes.​" This is very clear & precise and not 6 minutes.

                        Then there's the Irish Times of 1 October that reads: "The information of the crime reached Leman street Police Station at ten minutes past 1 o'clock...". That information reached them in the form of Eagle. As you say, Lamb sent Eagle for the station very shortly after they arrived at the crime scene. But, as Herlock pointed out, not to fetch Johnson, but to fetch inspector Pinhorn.

                        Anyway, it would have taken Eagle some 5 minutes to arrive at the station, so if he arrived there close to 1:10, then he left the crime scene close to 1:05.

                        Then we have Lamb saying that he arrived at the crime scene 10 to 12 minutes before Blackwell arrived. According to Blackwell's watch, at least, it would have been 1:04 to 1:06 am then.


                        The 1:05 goes very well with the above. The 1:10 not so good, as evidenced by the Irish Times of 1 October.


                        Again, as Herlock has pointed out, Eagle was sent for the police station to fetch the inspector.



                        Which is exacly what happened according to the Irish Times.

                        If you can point out something that isn't correct, then let me know.

                        All the best,
                        Frank
                        Hi Frank,

                        If Eagle was sent to notify the station, so that they could notify Johnson, so that he could be there at 3-4 minutes before Blackwell, at 1:16....then at what time did Louis first get off his cart? Before he went indoors. Before Eagle and others came down to see whats up, before Issac K is first sent out, and Eagle leaves..then Louis and Issac[s]? Issac cannot find anyone so he heads out to find Eagle who has caught the attention of Lamb at, or just before, 1am.

                        Would Morris Eagle have been on Commercial where he is seen by Lamb at just before or at 1am if Louis first arrives just after 1am? Not a trick question...obviously not.

                        Can any of those "reliable"...police, medical men,....stated times be even close to accurate if Louis didnt first get off his cart until just after 1am.? No.

                        I can easily see how 5 or 10 minutes is taken up by the initial discovery..the call inside for help with people straggling down the stairs, likely most were inebriated by that time, the assessment...do we get help and who goes...Issac K is sent, Eagle goes, a few minutes later Lamb sees Eagle, Issac K comes up to them and joins them back to the gates.....all that, with Louis arriving at just after 1am, makes it around 1:05-1:10 before Eagle is sent to notifify anyone. And Johnson somehow is there within perhaps 2 minutes time?

                        Louis arriving at just after 1am doesnt play well with all our times given by what I describe, and George mentioned, as "reliable" sources, and we have 3 witnesses that stated without reservation that they were alerted to the body at around 12:40-12:45, and the Arbeter Fraint edition in late November, published on that same premises, stated that at 12:45 the club members were made aware of a dying woman in the passageway.

                        You dont have to imagine an earlier arrive time for Louis, or make up one...you dont have to estimate a time for Louis's arrival, you already have witnesses and a earlier timeline created by reliable witnesses that lays out that whole storyline. What you do have to do though is essentially walk through the time sequences evidence with every witness there who provides one, suss out which do not fit into a continuous storyline or match other corroborated accounts or most importantly the accounts from reliable witnesses that leave markers at approximate, but also curiously..at relatively specific general times.

                        My argument all along is that there is evidence that substantiates a claim that Louis arrived earlier than he insisted he did and that other club staff just agreed with that timing. But not all without reservations....." I couldnt be sure (when I walked right past the spot where she is found) that a body was not there at the time" is what Eagle said, except the bracketed insert part... and he also says he arrived back at 12:40.

                        12:40. When Issac K says he heard Mr D wanted him downstairs in the passageway. When Heschberg recalls first hearing about this, and shortly before Spooner recalls accompanying members back to the gates. Which is shortly before Lamb sees Eagle on Commercial, and shortly before Lamb, Eagle and Issac K arrive back at the gates. Shortly before Eagle is sent to notify the station, who then calls Dr Johnson, who gets out of bed, gets dressed and gets to the location at around 1:12...shortly before Blackwell arrives, who beats Phillips there by about 15 minutes. Phillips arrives at 1:30.

                        Im not sure why this sequence of events is so distasteful to some, its within the known evidence so its an idea that already has some grounding in the data. And I defer to authority figures accounts for the pace, or tempo, of the events based on their time estimates. Lamb had to have a sense of the time to record his beats, Johnson knew what time he heard of this and when he arrived there in relation to the time of Blackwells arrival, which was derived from his using a watch.

                        That sequence of events would mean that Eagle knew about the woman and went for help before 1am. Which means he was upstairs a few minutes after arriving at 12:40, heard the calls for help downstairs, came back down and after a few minutes went for help. That places him at the Commercial Rd juncture at approximately the same time as Lamb says he saw him. Just before, or at, 1am.

                        And that means that Louis was not telling the truth when said, in his own words, he arrived "precisely" at 1. So if he lied, or was very wrong about that,....then what time did he actually arrive? Maybe around the time 3 witnesses say they saw him in that passageway. Because their time sequence is supported by the reliable witness times beginning with Lamb at just before 1.
                        Michael Richards

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by GBinOz View Post

                          Hi Frank,

                          Hope you will forgive my taking the liberty of responding to the invitation that you extended to Michael.

                          It appears to me that Lamb was correct in his time of first seeing Eagle at about 1am, or shortly before. It is interesting that in the Irish Times of 1 Oct. notes Diemshitz as saying:
                          "A member named Isaacs went down into the yard with me, and we struck a match. We saw blood right from the gate up the yard Then we both went for the police, but unfortunately it was several minutes before we could find a constable. At last another member of the club named Eagle, who ran out after us and went in a different direction, found one in Commercial road.".
                          There is also a commentary of :
                          "The search was for some time fruitless. At last, however, after considerable delay, a constable was found in Commercial road.".
                          What period of time can be attached to the terms "several minutes" and "considerable delay"? The dictionary definition of the former is:
                          ​Few is used the same way as couple and also for a number slightly greater than a couple. Several is usually used for a number greater than a couple and a few.
                          Could we conclude perhaps four or five minutes, taking the discovery time back to around 12:55, or a little earlier?​ How Long had Stride been dead when her body was discovered, and bearing in mind that Blackwell testified that "She would have bled to death comparatively slowly​ "​, how long before that was she actually attacked? (rhetorical question alert ).

                          Best regards, George
                          That is of course what Ive been saying all along George, the parts in bold being the crux of the matter. From the time of first discovery to the time the first help is arriving on site, we are looking at the very at least a 5-10 minute interval, maybe more realistically a 10-15 minute period.

                          Either way, an initial discovery at or just after 1am isnt reasonable or probable, and the time taken to do things like the ones mentioned above confirms that opinion.

                          Some may say Im accusing the club of hiding something, when in fact I dont see that as being the most probable answer as to why they would fudge on the times. I think they fudged because Louis and the people who were paid by the club knew that being perceived as anarchists by the local authorities, and many being immigrant Polish Jews just like the one Anderson stated was Jack the Ripper an as "ascertained" fact, this event could be very troublesome for their club and their members. They needed to present a story that did not suggest they in anyway delayed going to get help, that they respond just as good citizens would be expected to do. They did all they could to help the poor woman.

                          I think the reality is that they did take a few minutes to assess their best strategy...and they did not want that delay to be suspicious...like if they were hiding evidence or something before getting the police. And the police did search every person at that club, and the club itself, upstairs and downstairs. Maybe they did expect to find some evidence of the clubs involvement in this crime. Maybe they hoped to anyway.

                          The police saw these men as anarchists, criminals.....BEFORE any woman was murdered there. How might that murder affect their opinion on that matter? The club staff knew they needed to be careful...when you are being careful, you consider your options. You decide based on some deliberations. I think thats what they did.

                          I also think that since there is not one secondary validation for any man being on that street for more than just a quick pass by the gates around 12:55, that the ONLY men in the vicinity of that murder at the time it happened were the ones attending the club. Just sayin.
                          Michael Richards

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Michael W Richards View Post

                            Hi Frank,

                            If Eagle was sent to notify the station, so that they could notify Johnson, so that he could be there at 3-4 minutes before Blackwell, at 1:16....then at what time did Louis first get off his cart? Before he went indoors. Before Eagle and others came down to see whats up, before Issac K is first sent out, and Eagle leaves..then Louis and Issac[s]? Issac cannot find anyone so he heads out to find Eagle who has caught the attention of Lamb at, or just before, 1am..
                            There’s simply no excuse for this as I’ve recently explained it to you by posting Eagle’s inquest testimony. I’ll do it again:

                            One of the policemen turned his lamp on the deceased and sent me to the station for the inspector, at the same time telling his comrade to fetch a doctor.”

                            They got to the yard and PC Lamb sent Eagle to the station and the other PC to fetch Blackwell. And when did they find out about the murder at the station?

                            Recently posted by Frank:

                            Irish Times of 1 October that reads: "The information of the crime reached Leman street Police Station at ten minutes past 1 o'clock..."

                            So Eagle got to the police station at 1.10. We can give or take a couple of minutes of course. The station wasn’t miles away and we can assume that Eagle didn’t get lost on the way.

                            So as ever you’re basing your suggestion on something that isn’t true.
                            Regards

                            Sir Herlock Sholmes.

                            “A house of delusions is cheap to build but draughty to live in.”

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Michael W Richards View Post

                              I can easily see how 5 or 10 minutes is taken up by the initial discovery..the call inside for help with people straggling down the stairs, likely most were inebriated by that time, the assessment...do we get help and who goes...Issac K is sent, Eagle goes, a few minutes later Lamb sees Eagle, Issac K comes up to them and joins them back to the gates.....all that, with Louis arriving at just after 1am, makes it around 1:05-1:10 before Eagle is sent to notifify anyone. And Johnson somehow is there within perhaps 2 minutes time?

                              .

                              Of you can see it….because you’re making things up. No one else can ‘see it’ though.

                              Louis saw the clock at 1.00 and not just after because that’s an invention based on yet another misreading of the evidence.

                              Gets off the cart, lights a match which goes out - 20 seconds.

                              Goes into the club and into a downstairs room where he sees his wife and tells those in that very same room about the body. He pucks up a candle and goes back outside - 30 seconds.

                              He sees the blood even before lighting the candle and immediately went for a Constable - 30 seconds.

                              Add a bit of unneeded ballast and we have Diemschitz arriving then departing in around 2 minutes absolutely no problem at all. It could easily have been less. 5 minutes is a joke…10 is embarrassing. A blatant attempt by you to stretch the time to make your ideas fit.

                              Regards

                              Sir Herlock Sholmes.

                              “A house of delusions is cheap to build but draughty to live in.”

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Michael W Richards View Post

                                Im not sure why this sequence of events is so distasteful to some, its within the known evidence so its an idea that already has some grounding in the data. And I defer to authority figures accounts for the pace, or tempo, of the events based on their time estimates. Lamb had to have a sense of the time to record his beats, Johnson knew what time he heard of this and when he arrived there in relation to the time of Blackwells arrival, which was derived from his using a watch.
                                1.
                                The only thing that’s distasteful are your inventions. The events have been explained fully and they fit perfectly without the need to change anything except maybe an allowance of a couple of minutes here and there.

                                BLACKWELL - 1.16
                                JOHNSON - 1.10
                                LAMB ARRIVES AT THE YARD 10 MINUTES BEFORE BLACKWELL - AROUND 1.06
                                THEREFORE LAMB SEES EAGLE JUST BEFORE THAT SO - AROUND 1.05
                                EAGLE ARRIVES AT THE STATION AT - AROUND 1.10
                                SPOONER ARRIVES AROUND 5 MINUTES BEFORE LAMB SO - JUST AFTER 1.00

                                Of all of those mentioned in the events in Berner Street I’ve changed no times except for saying that Kozebrodski and Heschberg were provably mistaken and Spooner’s 12.35 is contradicted by himself.

                                You’re the one altering times not me.

                                Letchford 12.30 - fine by me
                                Smith at 12.30/12.35 - fine by me
                                Eagle returns at around 12.35/12.40 - fine by me.
                                Lave from around 12.30 to around 12.40 - fine by me.
                                Diemschitz at 1.00 - fine by me.
                                Lamb at around 1.00 - fine by me.
                                Brown passing around 12.45 - fine by me.
                                Brown hearing shouts at around 1.00 - fine by me.
                                Gilleman informing Eagle 20 minutes after 12.40 - fine by me.
                                Mrs Diemschitz 1.00 - fine by me.
                                Julius Minsky 1.00 - fine by me.
                                Mila 1.00 - fine by me.
                                Spooner arrives 5 minutes before Lamb - fine by me.
                                Fanny hears a cart at around 1.00 - fine by me.
                                Schwartz at 12.45 - fine by me.
                                Johnson arrives at 1.10 - fine by me.
                                Blackwell arrives at 12.16 - fine by me.
                                Miss Letchford at 12.50 - fine by me.
                                Eagle at Leman Street around 1.10 - fine by me.

                                Hardly reads like someone altering times to fit does it. Now, you on the other hand…

                                Regards

                                Sir Herlock Sholmes.

                                “A house of delusions is cheap to build but draughty to live in.”

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