Sequence of comings & goings - Stride

[FrankO]

Hi all,

Because of the ever-returning discussion on the timings of all the witnesses involved in the Stride case and also as a result of a post by Al Bundy's Eyes (#799) on the "Stride..a victim?" thread, I thought I'd give it a shot to reconstruct, at least, the sequence of comings and goings in and around Dutfield’s Yard.

As per the Evening News of 1 October “a young girl had been standing in a bisecting thoroughfare not fifty yards from the spot where the body was found. She had, she said, been standing there for about twenty minutes, talking with her sweetheart, but neither of them heard any unusual noises.” According to this same newspaper edition Mrs. Mortimer saw that “A young man and his sweetheart were standing at the corner of the street, about twenty yards away, before and after the time the woman must have been murdered, but they told me they did not hear a sound.”
It seems that Mortimer spoke to the girl after the discovery of Stride’s lifeless body in the yard. And it could well be that Brown actually saw this girl with her boyfriend and not Stride. If we’re supposing this was the same couple, then:

1. this couple must have been standing there, just as Mortimer says, before and after the murder was committed and perhaps even during, although they may have moved a bit away from Berner Street while they were talking, still remaining within 50 yards of the yard
2. the couple were still there after the discovery, as it would seem both Mortimer and the Evening News talked to the girl about the period that they had been standing there
3. Mortimer doesn’t claim to have seen Brown pass, so it would seem that Mortimer wasn’t at her door when this happened; in other words, she must have come at her door after he passed
4. as neither Mortimer, Brown or the couple heard or saw anything of the Schwarz incident, the incident took place before the couple arrived at the corner of the board school

So, this is the sequence based on the above 4 points:

1. couple arrives at the corner of the board school
2. Brown passes and sees the couple
3. Mortimer comes to her door
4. Leon Goldstein passes
5. Mortimer goes back inside

The problematic period is between, say, 12:30 and the Schwartz incident.
We have quite a few things happening at or around 12:30 am:
- Charles Letchford arrives home
- William Wess, his brother and Louis Stansley leave the club by the steet door to go home
- Joseph Lave came out to get a breath of fresh air and stayed out for some 10 minutes
None of them saw each other or anyone else – or if they did, they didn’t say so.
Then there’s Morris Eagle who arrives back at the club at around 12:40 am

So, this may be the sequence based on the above:

1. Wess & company leave / Letchford arrives
2. Letchford arrives / Wess & company leave
3. Lave goes outside (and remains there for 5 to 10 minutes)
4. Eagle returns to the club

Then we’re left with the arrival of Stride & companion in the vicinity of the club, followed by Smith’s arrival when he sees them opposite the yard and the Schwartz incident, that must have taken place before the couple seen by Brown & Mortimer arrives at the corner of the board school. Since the men above don’t mention Smith and/or Stride & companion and Smith only mentions Stride & companion and none of the above, it seems logical that Stride arrives at the scene after Eagle returns to the club.

So, the most logical sequence based on the above seems:

1. Stride & companion arrive close to the club
2. Smith arrives and sees Stride & companion opposite the club
3. Stride, now alone, is standing at the entrance of the yard when Schwartz sees an altercation commence between Stride and a man who had been walking ahead of him

The complete sequence, including the period after the discovery of Stride’s body, is then as follows:

1. Wess & company leave / Letchford arrives
2. Letchford arrives / Wess & company leave
3. Lave goes outside (and remains there for 5 to 10 minutes)
4. Eagle returns to the club
5. Stride & companion arrive close to the club
6. Smith arrives and sees Stride & companion opposite the club Stride, now alone, is standing at the entrance of the yard when Schwartz sees an altercation between Stride and a man who had been walking ahead of him
7. couple arrives at the corner of the board school
8. Brown passes and sees the couple
9. Mortimer comes to her door
10. Leon Goldstein passes the club
11. Mortimer goes back inside
12. Louis Diemshutz arrives in the yard and discovers Stride
13. Diemshutz & Kozebrodski run south searching for a policeman, Eagle north
14. Edward Spooner arrives at the scene together with Diemshutz; Kozebrodski joins Eagle and they find P.C. Lamb; Mortimer enters the yard (she sees Spooner touch Stride’s face – Evening News, 1 October)
15. P.C. Lamb arrives, followed by another P.C. (426 H)
16. P.C. 426 is sent for Blackwell, Eagle for Inspector Pinhorn and blows his whistle
17. P.C. Albert Collins arrives as a result of the whistle (Smith sees 2 constables on his arrival and PC 426 isn’t at the scene then)
18. P.C. Smith arrives at the scene
19. As Edward Johnson, Blackwell’s assistant, arrives with PC 426, Smith leaves to get the ambulance
20. Lamb closes the gates
21. Dr. Blackwell arrives at the scene
22. Inspector Pinhorn arrives
23. Dr. Phillips arrives

I’ve left the times out so they can't get in the way, but if we want to put times to each coming or going, I think that everything should start with Blackwell’s timing, as he consulted his watch when he arrived in the yard. Furthermore, I’m not claiming that the list above MUST be correct, so anybody who wants to have a go at it, be my guest. And, of course, if we'd assume that Brown did see Stride & companion and not the couple Mortimer spoke to, then something might change.

All the best,
Frank

[FrankO]

Couple of corrections, sorry...

[*]Smith arrives and sees Stride & companion opposite the club Stride, now alone, is standing at the entrance of the yard when Schwartz sees an altercation between Stride and a man who had been walking ahead of him

I should have written:
6 Smith arrives and sees Stride & companion opposite the club
7 Stride, now alone, is standing at the entrance of the yard when Schwartz sees an altercation between Stride and a man who had been walking ahead of him

[*]Edward Spooner arrives at the scene together with Diemshutz; Kozebrodski joins Eagle and they find P.C. Lamb; Mortimer enters the yard (she sees Spooner touch Stride’s face – Evening News, 1 October)

I should have written:
14 Edward Spooner arrives at the scene together with Diemshutz; Kozebrodski joins Eagle and they find P.C. Lamb
15 Mortimer enters the yard

[*]P.C. 426 is sent for Blackwell, Eagle for Inspector Pinhorn and blows his whistle

This should have been: P.C. 426 is sent for Blackwell, Eagle for Inspector Pinhorn and then Lamb blows his whistle

[Wickerman]

Hi Frank.

Some may notice that when we look at a sequence of events, a few 'myths' (posing as theories) are exploded.

Example: The 'Parcel-man' seen by PC Smith couldn't have been Wess leaving the print shop with a bunch of flyers, as we can see he left the club by the front door with his brother & another man long before 'Parcel-man' arrived on the scene.

We can also see which were the 'two Jews' who ran along Fairclough St. as I tried to impress on Michael - it was Diemschutz & Kozebrodski, confirmed by your analysis.

I do notice you have not included Packer?, when we include his statement we can see it is confirmed by PC Smith, and regardless of estimates of the size of the newspaper parcel, it must have been the parcel of grapes.

Good work, this analysis should be the basis for future studies of the activities in Berner St. that night.

[Michael W Richards]

Issac Kozebroski was interviewed that same night and said he was sent out "alone" by Louis or some other member, he also said it happened at 12:40. Louis did leave with someone named Issac[s], likely a surname, and they went out after 1.

Whats being suggested here is that we should ignore all evidence that doesnt affirm what unsubstantiated and uncorroborated witnesses claimed. Instead of using the majority of accounts, that directly dispute those unsubstantiated ones, and incorporate events and sounds that were neither seen nor heard by witnesses who could do both during that last half hour.

12:30 Lave at the gates, Fanny begins intermittent visits to her door. A Young couple is seen.
12:35: Stride seen with Parcel Man by Smith
12:40: Club attendees alerted to body, Louis is there, Issac K is told to go for help, as well as 2 as yet unidentified Jews, who meet Spooner and return.
12:40 Eagle arrives back, Lave is still at the gates. Neither see anything.
12:45:Brown sees young couple by School
12:50: Fanny goes to her door to stand there for 10 minutes.
12:55: She estimates she sees Goldstein walk past the gates, look in, and hurry along at about 12:
1:00am: Louis claims he arrives
Just after 1: Fanny hears a commotion, Louis and Issac[s] goes for help, Eagle goes another way to do the same. Issac K meets Eagle upon his return around 1:05.

Thats a readers digest overview. No Israel Schwartz, no Louis and Issac K running out together, the body is known of at around 12:40 by multiple sources, no BSM or Pipeman,...the only people seen or heard during that last 25 minutes are the young couple and Goldstein. The street was essentially deserted.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Issac Kozebroski was interviewed that same night and said he was sent out "alone" by Louis or some other member, he also said it happened at 12:40. Louis did leave with someone named Issac[s], likely a surname, and they went out after 1.

Whats being suggested here is that we should ignore all evidence that doesnt affirm what unsubstantiated and uncorroborated witnesses claimed. Instead of using the majority of accounts, that directly dispute those unsubstantiated ones, and incorporate events and sounds that were neither seen nor heard by witnesses who could do both during that last half hour.

12:30 Lave at the gates, Fanny begins intermittent visits to her door. A Young couple is seen.
Disputed by what she told the EN reporter.
12:35: Stride seen with Parcel Man by Smith Suggesting that Smith was correct on timing and Mortimer was wrong.
12:40: Club attendees alerted to body, Louis is there, Issac K is told to go for help, as well as 2 as yet unidentified Jews, who meet Spooner and return.
12:40 Eagle arrives back, Lave is still at the gates. Neither see anything.
12:45:Brown sees young couple by School
You forgot Schwartz.
12:50: Fanny goes to her door to stand there for 10 minutes.
Or, according to the EN, she was back inside.
12:55: She estimates she sees Goldstein walk past the gates, look in, and hurry along at about 12:55
As Goldstein gives no time, and as the EN report give her as going back inside at around 12.45 or just before, she could have seen him at 12.44.
1:00am: Louis claims he arrives
Just after 1: Fanny hears a commotion
You've omitted that she heard a horse and cart (Diemschutz)
, Louis and Issac[s] goes for help, Eagle goes another way to do the same. Issac K meets Eagle upon his return around 1:05.

Thats a readers digest overview. No Israel Schwartz, no Louis and Issac K running out together, the body is known of at around 12:40 by multiple sources, no BSM or Pipeman,...the only people seen or heard during that last 25 minutes are the young couple and Goldstein. The street was essentially deserted.

We get nowhere by eliminating the inconvenient in favour of a conspiracy for which there is no solid evidence.

Who are these 'witnesses' who claimed that the body was discovered earlier and couldn't they have been wrong?

Are you suggesting that Schwartz lied to out himself at the scene of a murder when he wasn't there?

[Prosector]

What about William Marshall who apparently saw the couple at about 11.45pm? He always seems to me to have given the best description of the man that night. Fanny Mortimer troubles me because initially she claimed to have seen or heard nothing and only started remembering all the details like the 'ten inches of cold steel in her' after being interviewed by numerous reporters. The only alleged witnesses called to give evidence at the inquest were Smith, Marshall and Brown. It doesn't mean that the others were wrong or are not useful in terms of timings but those three seem to me to be the most reliable.

[Herlock Sholmes]

For my own info what was the name of the pub that Pipeman was supposed to have come from and what street number was it?

[DJA]

Nelson Beer House,46 Berner Street.
Have the proprietors name somewhere,or you could use the search function ..... I haven't woken up yet.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Nelson Beer House,46 Berner Street.
Have the proprietors name somewhere,or you could use the search function ..... I haven't woken up yet.

Cheers Dave
Schwartz said that Pipeman was on the opposite side of the road to BS man though he only mentions the pub in the Star?

[DJA]

Louis Hagens was probably Pipeman.

Schwartz crossed the road towards the Board School to avoid BS Man.

[FrankO]

Issac Kozebroski was interviewed that same night and said he was sent out "alone" by Louis or some other member, he also said it happened at 12:40. Louis did leave with someone named Issac[s], likely a surname, and they went out after 1.

As per the Woodford Times of 5 and the Illustrated Police News of 6 October, Kozebrodski was familiarly known as “Isaacs”. These 2 newspapers wrote that Diemshutz discovered Stride’s body at around 1 am and that after returning to the yard & having alerted people inside the club, he went running for a policeman together with Kozebrodski, familiarly known as Isaacs. Make of that what you will, Michael.

Whats being suggested here is that we should ignore all evidence that doesnt affirm what unsubstantiated and uncorroborated witnesses claimed.

I'm not doing anything of the sort, Michael. I just tried to make sense of the evidence and put all comings & goings in a sequence that does as little violence as possible to said evidence. It's just a starting point and I invited anyone who has something sensible to add or say about it to do just that.

Just after 1: Fanny hears a commotion, Louis and Issac[s] goes for help, Eagle goes another way to do the same. Issac K meets Eagle upon his return around 1:05.

It’s not quite clear what Kozebrodski/Isaacs does; it’s possible that he returns with Diemshutz & Spooner to the yard and only then runs with Eagle in the direction of Commercial Road to find a policeman, but also that he leaves Diemshutz & Spooner, goes up Christian Street or Batty Street and, together with Eagle, finds Lamb. Since, according to Eagle’s own statement versions, he seems to have left for a policeman very shortly after Diemshutz & Kozebrodski/Isaacs left the yard in search of a policeman, the latter possibility seems more likely. That Kozebrodski only meets Eagle upon his return is contradicted by Lamb’s testimony, as he clearly stated that he 2 men came running towards him.

[FrankO]

Hi Frank.

Some may notice that when we look at a sequence of events, a few 'myths' (posing as theories) are exploded.

Example: The 'Parcel-man' seen by PC Smith couldn't have been Wess leaving the print shop with a bunch of flyers, as we can see he left the club by the front door with his brother & another man long before 'Parcel-man' arrived on the scene.

We can also see which were the 'two Jews' who ran along Fairclough St. as I tried to impress on Michael - it was Diemschutz & Kozebrodski, confirmed by your analysis.

Good work, this analysis should be the basis for future studies of the activities in Berner St. that night.

Thanks for your additions & compliment, Jon!

I do notice you have not included Packer?, when we include his statement we can see it is confirmed by PC Smith, and regardless of estimates of the size of the newspaper parcel, it must have been the parcel of grapes.

I simply hadn't thought of him (yet), perhaps - unconsciously - because he changed his statement a couple of times. I'll have a look at him!

[caz]

Great work, Frank!

I've always thought that if Schwartz had invented what he claimed to see, he'd still have needed to be there at the right time, to know that no witnesses - such as a policeman - were around who could prove he was lying. What's more, if the police did manage to trace and eliminate Pipeman, he wasn't an invention, and he presumably confirmed the basics of the story.

Love,

Caz
X

[FrankO]

Great work, Frank!

Thanks, Caz!

I've always thought that if Schwartz had invented what he claimed to see, he'd still have needed to be there at the right time, to know that no witnesses - such as a policeman - were around who could prove he was lying. What's more, if the police did manage to trace and eliminate Pipeman, he wasn't an invention, and he presumably confirmed the basics of the story.

I couldn't agree more.

All the best,
Frank

[FrankO]

What about William Marshall who apparently saw the couple at about 11.45pm? He always seems to me to have given the best description of the man that night. Fanny Mortimer troubles me because initially she claimed to have seen or heard nothing and only started remembering all the details like the 'ten inches of cold steel in her' after being interviewed by numerous reporters. The only alleged witnesses called to give evidence at the inquest were Smith, Marshall and Brown. It doesn't mean that the others were wrong or are not useful in terms of timings but those three seem to me to be the most reliable.

I agree that Marshall was a reliable witness, Prospector. To me, he's also very usefull in the sense that, amongst others of course, his testimony shows that:
1. Stride had been in the neighbourhood for quite some time before she was killed
2. That the man/men she was seen with, treated her with a sort of affection (unlike something I would expect from a regular prostitute's punter) - in that he/they kissed her, gave her flowers, sweets and perhaps even grapes