Berner Street: No Plot, No Mystery

[Herlock Sholmes]

A pre-Mortimer incident.


12.30 - Charles Letchford walks north on Berner Street.

12.30.30 - Charles Letchford goes into his house. At around the same time Stride and Parcelman turn into Berner Street and begin to walk slowly south.

12.31 - Joseph Lave goes into the yard and stands at the gateway. He sees nothing and goes back into the yard toward the printing office (or maybe he used the outside loo?)

12.31.30 - PC Smith turns into Berner Street

12.32 - Stride and Parcelman stop opposite the club and stand talking.

12.33 - Smith passes the club and sees the couple talking.

12.33.30 - The couple move on.

12.35 - Morris Eagle returns to the club and goes inside. As he goes inside BS man enters Berner Street and walks south. Israel Schwartz is a few yards behind him.

12.36 - Stride and Parcelman part company and Stride heads north on Berner Street. She either stops to wait for someone or she ducks into the yard when she sees BS man approaching.

12.36.30 - BS man and Stride meet and the incident occurs.

12.37 - Schwartz and Pipeman have left the scene.

12.37.30 - BS man pulls Stride into the yard.

12.38 - BS man walks away not wishing to attract attention. He’s heard by Fanny who thinks that it’s the tread of a Constable.

12.38.30 - Fanny Mortimer goes onto her doorstep.

12.40 - James Brown goes for his supper. Crossing Berner Street takes seconds and Fanny doesn’t see him. Maybe poor lighting or maybe she was looking north when he passed?

12.41 - A couple arrive and stand just around the corner in Fairclough Street. Fanny can’t see them.

12.44 - Brown returns and sees the couple.

12.49 - Leon Goldstein passed.

12.50 - Fanny goes back indoors.

12.55 - Miss Letchford goes to lock up for the evening and sees nothing in the street.

1.00 - Fanny hears a horse and cart pass (Louis)

1.02 - She hears the commotion from the club.


A post-Mortimer incident


12.28 - Joseph Lave goes into the yard. He goes to the gateway and sees nothing and goes back inside the yard (maybe he uses the outside loo?)

12.28.30 - Charles Letchford walks north along Berner Street. At the same time Stride and Parcelman enter Berner Street and stroll south.

12.29.30 - PC Smith enters Berner Street walking south.

12.30 - The couple stop opposite the gate and talk.

12.31 - Smith passed the club and sees the couple.

12.31.30 - The couple exit the street.

12.33 - Eagle returns to the club.

12.33.30 - After hearing him pass Fanny Mortimer (who either heard Smith or Eagle [mistaking his tread for a PC]) goes onto her doorstep.

12.41 - James Brown goes for his supper.

12.42 - Fanny sees Leon Goldstein pass.

12.42.30 - The couple arrive on the corner of Fairclough Street

12.43 - BS man enters Berner Street with Schwartz not far behind him.

12.43.30 - Fanny goes back indoors. Brown passes and sees the couple. After he passes they move on.

12.44 - Stride arrived at the gateway.

12.44.30 - The incident occurs and by 12.45 Schwartz and Pipeman are gone.

12.45 - BS man has killed Stride and leaves the scene.

12.46 - Miss Letchford goes onto her doorstep before locking up and sees nothing.

1.00 - Fanny hears a horse and cart (Louis)

1.02 - She hears the commotion from the yard.


So many possibles. None requiring lies or plots or false witnesses.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Charles Letchford stated his sister was at the door at "10 minutes to one"

But you state that it was 12.55am.


Does that mean that she was at her door for 5 minutes between 12.50am to 12.55am?

But saw nobody.


When we list specific times like 12.42am (for example) we also need to account for time spent at the door.

In other words; to be at the door at a set time, we must then cover the time spent at the door itself.

The same applies to the incident involving Bs Man allegedly assaulting Stride.

If it happens at a specific time of 12.42am (for example) we also need to factor in the time before and after the attack.

BS man can't just appear from thin air, assault Stride, and then leave the scene by vanishing. It takes time for him to come and go AND crucially NOT be seen at any point of his arrival and departure from the scene.

BS man walking down Berner Street to then be seen by Schwartz as he goes over to Stride to assault her, the subsequent shout of "Lipski" followed by Schwartz leaving, pipeman leaving and BS man also leaving, without ANY of them being seen OR heard..in under a minute...is simply improbable.

In reality, these things take time.

So rather than saying a time of 12.42am, we need to give a time frame

It is when we apply the necessary time frame, that it all begins to fall apart.



Has anyone ever created a 3D CGI version of the incident, who can perhaps construct the scene in real time and see how it runs.



RD

All that we know RD is that we can come up with a few versions that work but we don’t know which one is the actual one. This shows that these events aren’t impossible as some claim. They are only impossible if we apply impossibly high expectations with regard to accuracy. We don’t need to assume plots or that people lied….


Letchford passes at approximately 12.30 - how do we know that it was 12.30 and that he wasn’t giving a ball park figure? How would his time compare in synchronicity with Smith’s? How did he arrive at the 12.50 time for his sister? If his sister told him what time it was how can we judge the accuracy of her time? There’s also no mention of how long she was on her doorstep - she could just have been locking up for the night and so had a quick glance outside. Letchford said “and everything seemed to me to be going on as usual.” This only means that he saw nothing unusual..so he may have seen the couple.

The couple arrive just after 12.30 - we don’t know which way they arrived from or who they were. As Letchford only mentioned seeing nothing out of the ordinary maybe they had been there for a while?

Smith passes at approximately 12.32 - Letchford has gone indoors. He sees the couple. We have no way of tying down Smith’s time or comparing it as far as synchronicity goes with other clocks.

The couple move on seconds later. We can’t be certain that this was Stride but it’s certainly possible.

Lave comes into the yard at approximately 12.33 - perhaps he saw the couple but it wasn’t anything ‘unusual,’ and a couple walking away from the scene wouldn’t have appeared connected to a murder which occurred a few minutes later. By this time Eagle is walking along Berner Street. What we know for certain though is that Smith didn’t see Lave and Lave didn’t mention seeing Smith. We also can’t be anything like sure what time Lave went into the yard.

Eagle returns some time between 12.35 and 12.40 -Lave goes back inside just after Eagle got back. He didn’t see Eagle or go back to the gate before going inside.

Stride arrives at the gateway just after Eagle returned - this could have been at 12.36 or 12.37 or 12.38 or 12.39. All that we know is that Stride definitely ended up at the yard. Maybe she was waiting for someone or, maybe my suggestion that she could have ducked into the gateway to try and avoid BS man?

The incident occurs - from the time that BS man and Stride first meet (if it was Stride) to Schwartz and Parcelman leaving the street takes around 30 seconds. If BS man then kills Stride we could add another minute or so.

Fanny goes onto her doorstep just after the incident - maybe she heard BS man’s footsteps and mistook them for a Constable’s (walking slowly because he was a bit drunk?) But we have no way of knowing what time Fanny went onto her doorstep but we know that she didn’t see Stride.

At approximately 12.40 Brown goes for his supper - justafter that the couple arrive at the corner of Fairclough. Fanny can’t see them from where she’s standing. We also have to remember the time of day and the poor street lighting.

Brown returns and sees them 12.45.

Goldstein passes at around 12.50 - seen by Fanny. Goldstein never mentioned what time he passed so we can only say that he passed while Fanny was on her doorstep and we can’t even be certain of what time she was there or exactly how long she was there for.

Fanny goes back inside just after seeing Goldstein pass

Letchford’s sister goes onto her doorstep at approximately 12.55 to lock up and sees nothing.

Fanny hears horse and cart around 1.00 - it’s Louis.

Fanny hears commotion from the club just after 1.00.

[FISHY1118]

Charles Letchford stated his sister was at the door at "10 minutes to one"

But you state that it was 12.55am.


Does that mean that she was at her door for 5 minutes between 12.50am to 12.55am?

But saw nobody.


When we list specific times like 12.42am (for example) we also need to account for time spent at the door.

In other words; to be at the door at a set time, we must then cover the time spent at the door itself.

The same applies to the incident involving Bs Man allegedly assaulting Stride.

If it happens at a specific time of 12.42am (for example) we also need to factor in the time before and after the attack.

BS man can't just appear from thin air, assault Stride, and then leave the scene by vanishing. It takes time for him to come and go AND crucially NOT be seen at any point of his arrival and departure from the scene.

BS man walking down Berner Street to then be seen by Schwartz as he goes over to Stride to assault her, the subsequent shout of "Lipski" followed by Schwartz leaving, pipeman leaving and BS man also leaving, without ANY of them being seen OR heard..in under a minute...is simply improbable.

In reality, these things take time.

So rather than saying a time of 12.42am, we need to give a time frame

It is when we apply the necessary time frame, that it all begins to fall apart.



Has anyone ever created a 3D CGI version of the incident, who can perhaps construct the scene in real time and see how it runs.



RD

''The same applies to the incident involving Bs Man allegedly assaulting Stride.''



Hi R.D ,I really think you should refrain from using terms like ''Alledged'' when describing the attack on Stride as seen by Schwartzs. I get it ,you seem to think the whole event didnt happened, but just because you cant reconcile all the pieces doesnt mean we should have doubts about its authenticity.


As ive already suggested, if that were the case we could all use the term Alledged when we dont agree with a perticular witness statement . Where would that get us ?

If you could somehow show ''proof'' that it didnt happed then great lets see it , but if not ,all you have is your speculation and conjecture on your behalf







'BS man walking down Berner Street to then be seen by Schwartz as he goes over to Stride to assault her, the subsequent shout of "Lipski" followed by Schwartz leaving, pipeman leaving and BS man also leaving, without ANY of them being seen OR heard..in under a minute...is simply improbable.'


No more or less inprobable than any other witness statement [and there were many ] involved in the Stride murder.

[The Rookie Detective]

It works perfectly RD and I could write others that work perfectly too. These events aren’t even approaching impossible. They can be easily explained. No mystery needed.

Charles Letchford stated his sister was at the door at "10 minutes to one"

But you state that it was 12.55am.


Does that mean that she was at her door for 5 minutes between 12.50am to 12.55am?

But saw nobody.


When we list specific times like 12.42am (for example) we also need to account for time spent at the door.

In other words; to be at the door at a set time, we must then cover the time spent at the door itself.

The same applies to the incident involving Bs Man allegedly assaulting Stride.

If it happens at a specific time of 12.42am (for example) we also need to factor in the time before and after the attack.

BS man can't just appear from thin air, assault Stride, and then leave the scene by vanishing. It takes time for him to come and go AND crucially NOT be seen at any point of his arrival and departure from the scene.

BS man walking down Berner Street to then be seen by Schwartz as he goes over to Stride to assault her, the subsequent shout of "Lipski" followed by Schwartz leaving, pipeman leaving and BS man also leaving, without ANY of them being seen OR heard..in under a minute...is simply improbable.

In reality, these things take time.

So rather than saying a time of 12.42am, we need to give a time frame

It is when we apply the necessary time frame, that it all begins to fall apart.



Has anyone ever created a 3D CGI version of the incident, who can perhaps construct the scene in real time and see how it runs.



RD

[GBinOz]

I agree with the assessment by c.d. and yourself, that there was no assault. I think BSMan took her by the arm to attempt to lead her away from the yard and she pulled away, over-balanced and fell down. I think the three screams, that were no very loud, were but remonstrations by Stride directed at BSMan only.

Hello George,

Just to be clear, I never said there was no assault. I only mentioned the accidental falling as one possibility. It is also certainly possible that he did want to shove her and did so intentionally. My point remains however that this, in my opinion, was simply a little street hassle and that the B.S. man was not her killer.

c.d.

Hi c.d.,

Apologies for the poor choice of wording. Both Herlock and yourself were offering an alternative possibility, which I consider a strong probability.

Cheers, George

[c.d.]

I agree with the assessment by c.d. and yourself, that there was no assault. I think BSMan took her by the arm to attempt to lead her away from the yard and she pulled away, over-balanced and fell down. I think the three screams, that were no very loud, were but remonstrations by Stride directed at BSMan only.

Hello George,

Just to be clear, I never said there was no assault. I only mentioned the accidental falling as one possibility. It is also certainly possible that he did want to shove her and did so intentionally. My point remains however that this, in my opinion, was simply a little street hassle and that the B.S. man was not her killer.

c.d.

[Herlock Sholmes]

No we cannot. I personally think it was.

There certainly has to be a chance that it was.

[Kattrup]

Thanks Kattrup.

Can we be certain that the L. Goldstein addressing the meeting was Leon though?

No we cannot. I personally think it was.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Woolf Wess, in his statement to the papers about Goldstein, stated that Goldstein was a member.

I found an article from the Commonweal, 1890, which mentioned Goldstein addressing a meeting in Hebrew-German, i.e. Yiddish.

https://www.jtrforums.com/forum/the-crime-scenes/590923-wess-and-goldstein-1890

I draw the inference that Goldstein’s English was lacking.

Thanks Kattrup.

Can we be certain that the L. Goldstein addressing the meeting was Leon though?

[FrankO]

The reason why there are so many versions is that NONE of them work when we try to incorporate all of the witnesses being correct and truthful.

If there was only 1 timeline possible, then that would make more sense and it should all fit together if it is the truth.

The reason why it's difficult to construct a viable timeline is because it just doesn't all fit.

Hi RD,

In 2020 I started a thread, Sequence of comings & goings - Stride - Casebook: Jack the Ripper Forums, about the comings & goings of the witnesses in Stride's case. The only one I haven't included in the periode immediately before the discovery of Stride's body is Florence Letchford. I would now put her after Mortimer coming to her doorstep and then going back inside before Goldstein passed through the street. Later, in my own notes, I've added some points between 16 and 20 - nothing of great importance, so if you want to know, just let me know.

See what you think of it.

The best,
Frank

[Herlock Sholmes]

Hi Herlock,

I agree with the assessment by c.d. and yourself, that there was no assault. I think BSMan took her by the arm to attempt to lead her away from the yard and she pulled away, over-balanced and fell down. I think the three screams, that were no very loud, were but remonstrations by Stride directed at BSMan only.

Your second paragraph is possible, but speculative.

The perceived hero that possibly rescued Stride from the dispute with BSMan ccould have been walking along the street - Pipeman comes to mind, or he could have come from the club.

Did you manage to find anymore information on Goldstein's membership of the Club?

Cheers, George

Hi George,

Kattrup has answered the Goldstein question.

Although I mention someone ‘stepping in’ after BS man left I just wanted to stress that I’m not saying that BS man couldn’t have been our man. Odds would favour him I’d say. If we sort of combine the ‘no assault’ with BS man as the killer and add my speculation about Stride we might have….

Stride owes money (maybe to more than one person) and as she’s walking along Berner Street she spots someone that she owes money to so she tries to hide in the gateway. He sees her and asks for his money. She doesn’t make much noise because she doesn’t fear for her life. Maybe a black eye? He pushes her into the yard out of sight (maybe he wants to search her to check that she’s not hiding any money from him?) She has no money…he loses his temper and kills her.

As you rightly say though George, it’s all speculation.

[Kattrup]

Did you manage to find anymore information on Goldstein's membership of the Club?

Cheers, George

Woolf Wess, in his statement to the papers about Goldstein, stated that Goldstein was a member.

I found an article from the Commonweal, 1890, which mentioned Goldstein addressing a meeting in Hebrew-German, i.e. Yiddish.

https://www.jtrforums.com/forum/the-crime-scenes/590923-wess-and-goldstein-1890

I draw the inference that Goldstein’s English was lacking.

[FISHY1118]

You make an excellent point.

The issue is that I agree and disagree with you at the same time.


I think that Stride's MURDER would have taken 30 to 40 seconds...

But the alleged assault on Stride as told by Schwartz was an open public display of violence and not the work of a serial killer.

And not the work of someone who was an accomplished killer who could carry out an assault and leave the scene in 40 seconds.

The assault carried out by BS Man, was not the work of Jack the Ripper.

We often talk about M/O but the Ripper was not a man who would openly assault a woman in front of at least one witness in Schwartz

We can apply the same logic to the man who allegedly bought grapes from Packer; he stood across the road almost opposite Packer for over half an hour.

The Ripper would not have stayed on the scene for more than... 40 seconds.


So by using your own logic of 30-40 seconds you are effectively ruling out BS man as the killer and nullifying the significance of the assault as nothing more than a man who threw her to the ground.

Perhaps a club member, perhaps a pimp or gang member, perhaps even Kidney himself...but certainly not a calculated serial killer.



RD

We dont know what motive B.S man had when he assaulted Stride, or his reason for killing her, or the means and circumstances in which he chose. [if indeed he was the killer] So we cant rule him out of her murder . I dont see how ,as you put it ''My logic rules him out'' . Not sure what your logic is for ruling him out based on what we already know . But certainly not Mary Kellys killer, which i think we both agree on. So not all bad.

[The Rookie Detective]

Work on the possibility that the Stride attack could have lasted as little as 30 to 40 seconds, then its easy to fit in all the rest of the witnesses accounts given the inaccuracies and variables of time estimates.

I agree on your assessment about Stride being unlucky to have been assaulted by B.S man and then 15 mins later killed by the Ripper.

B.S man surely cut her throat, but he wasn't the Ripper that butchered Mary kelly.

You make an excellent point.

The issue is that I agree and disagree with you at the same time.


I think that Stride's MURDER would have taken 30 to 40 seconds...

But the alleged assault on Stride as told by Schwartz was an open public display of violence and not the work of a serial killer.

And not the work of someone who was an accomplished killer who could carry out an assault and leave the scene in 40 seconds.

The assault carried out by BS Man, was not the work of Jack the Ripper.

We often talk about M/O but the Ripper was not a man who would openly assault a woman in front of at least one witness in Schwartz

We can apply the same logic to the man who allegedly bought grapes from Packer; he stood across the road almost opposite Packer for over half an hour.

The Ripper would not have stayed on the scene for more than... 40 seconds.


So by using your own logic of 30-40 seconds you are effectively ruling out BS man as the killer and nullifying the significance of the assault as nothing more than a man who threw her to the ground.

Perhaps a club member, perhaps a pimp or gang member, perhaps even Kidney himself...but certainly not a calculated serial killer.



RD

[GBinOz]

I agree c.d. The fact that Schwartz couldn’t speak English might even have led him to misinterpret the seriousness of the incident. Maybe it was just a drunken BS man, who might even have known Stride in some way, trying to get her to go with him but she didn’t want to go? A bit of pulling and she pulled free of his grasp and ended up on the ground (as you suggest) then BS man simply berated Schwartz with a Lipski comment because BS saw him looking over and was accusing him of being nosey?

I made a suggestion in an earlier post but it didn’t get any comment. I speculated that perhaps Stride wasn’t waiting in the gateway for someone. Maybe she was walking north and as she got to the gates she saw BS man approaching (someone she wanted to avoid) so she ducked into the gateway thinking (or hoping?) that he hadn’t seen her?

We have a few possibilities and they’re all complete speculation of course but we know that the actual incident would have taken a matter of seconds so it’s not really a huge event to miss. It’s perhaps more likely statistically that BS man was her killer but it could have been the case that her killer was walking along Berner Street as the incident occurred. He might have been the ‘hero’ who scared off BS man before killing Stride. Maybe, what if, perhaps…

Hi Herlock,

I agree with the assessment by c.d. and yourself, that there was no assault. I think BSMan took her by the arm to attempt to lead her away from the yard and she pulled away, over-balanced and fell down. I think the three screams, that were no very loud, were but remonstrations by Stride directed at BSMan only.

Your second paragraph is possible, but speculative.

The perceived hero that possibly rescued Stride from the dispute with BSMan ccould have been walking along the street - Pipeman comes to mind, or he could have come from the club.

Did you manage to find anymore information on Goldstein's membership of the Club?

Cheers, George