Did BS-man murder Liz Stride?

[lynn cates]

converging

Hello Jon. Thanks.

See, we really ARE converging.

Cheers.
LC

[Wickerman]

You can cover more ground by running through different scenario's, than digging a trench, right?

[Michael W Richards]

All very well to promote the noble objectives Michael, so why are your theories not more acceptable than anyone elses?

We are all fishing without a hook.

But some Jon are fishing for only specific fish in waters that are very muddied and not assuredly stocked with said variety.

The one theory that can be shot down time and time again is that one man killed the Canonical Five. Inconsistencies abound. Which makes a theory other than that, at the very least, possible.

As for my own personal view that in some form or another I believe Pro Irish Self Rule factions had a hand in one or more of those five murders, just ask yourself,..prior to the Fall of 1888, specifically a period of just over 2 months within that Fall,...what organization, group, movement, had been systematically subjecting London to a reign of terror for decades....committing heinous acts strictly to get attention to promote their cause? Now....What factions were being investigated in formal hearings at the very same time as the Ripper killings took place?

Not really a leap, if youve read Fenian Fire...among other related books..to imagine a terror campaign that includes people being slaughtered publicly...since it had already happened before.

If I was a die hard Fenian type and I found the need that Fall to silence someone, I could easily understand being tempted to mimic this assumed crazy man to conceal the true motive for the murder. For that matter I could see anyone who found themselves a murderer of a woman that Fall to be so tempted.

Cheers

[Digalittledeeperwatson]

Hullo

But some Jon are fishing for only specific fish in waters that are very muddied and not assuredly stocked with said variety.

Agreed, but some are also fishing for multiple fish that may not be in stock either.

The one theory that can be shot down time and time again is that one man killed the Canonical Five. Inconsistencies abound. Which makes a theory other than that, at the very least, possible.

All theories are like some many clay pigeons. Some just stay in flight longer. Very possible indeed. How probable it is is another matter, but very possible.

As for my own personal view that in some form or another I believe Pro Irish Self Rule factions had a hand in one or more of those five murders, just ask yourself,..prior to the Fall of 1888, specifically a period of just over 2 months within that Fall,...what organization, group, movement, had been systematically subjecting London to a reign of terror for decades....committing heinous acts strictly to get attention to promote their cause? Now....What factions were being investigated in formal hearings at the very same time as the Ripper killings took place?

Yes but what else was also occuring at that time? Could one not draw the same conclusion by using that tactic?

Not really a leap, if youve read Fenian Fire...among other related books..to imagine a terror campaign that includes people being slaughtered publicly...since it had already happened before.

Okay but the manner in which it was executed then becomes the question. Why so few? Why only poor women? Why not murder someone that mattered? Etc.

If I was a die hard Fenian type and I found the need that Fall to silence someone, I could easily understand being tempted to mimic this assumed crazy man to conceal the true motive for the murder. For that matter I could see anyone who found themselves a murderer of a woman that Fall to be so tempted.

Much that could be said here but going with this. This isn't like pulling a trigger. It's not something any common Joe is gonna do unless he is already a very twisted puppy.
Cheers

I think there may be something of what you suspect in all this but I don't think it is the root of it.

[Cogidubnus]

This may or may not be the case but Stewart's posting on the Grand Jury thread has certainly forced me to re-appraise...not saying it's 100% of course (and I'm sure Stewart wouldn't) but it really is suggestive and a potential eyeopener in it's synchronicity!

All the best

Dave

[lynn cates]

scenarios

Hello Jon. Thanks.

"You can cover more ground by running through different scenarios, than digging a trench, right?"

But, of course. However, a scenario must be kept separate from a fantasy.

Cheers.
LC

[Wickerman]

But some Jon are fishing for only specific fish in waters that are very muddied and not assuredly stocked with said variety.

Michael, that could apply to the majority, in one way or another.

The one theory that can be shot down time and time again is that one man killed the Canonical Five. Inconsistencies abound. Which makes a theory other than that, at the very least, possible.

This is one perspective I stay away from. Provisionally, I suspect at the very least Nichols, Chapman & Eddowes fell to the same hand.
I find it hard to see this group not including Kelly, but I must admit, some arguments about a different killer in Millers Court are worthy of consideration. Not that I embrace them, but they are not too easily dismissed.

As for my own personal view that in some form or another I believe Pro Irish Self Rule factions had a hand in one or more of those five murders, just ask yourself,..prior to the Fall of 1888, specifically a period of just over 2 months within that Fall,...what organization, group, movement, had been systematically subjecting London to a reign of terror for decades....committing heinous acts strictly to get attention to promote their cause? Now....What factions were being investigated in formal hearings at the very same time as the Ripper killings took place?

Not really a leap, if youve read Fenian Fire...among other related books..to imagine a terror campaign that includes people being slaughtered publicly...since it had already happened before.

If I was a die hard Fenian type and I found the need that Fall to silence someone, I could easily understand being tempted to mimic this assumed crazy man to conceal the true motive for the murder. For that matter I could see anyone who found themselves a murderer of a woman that Fall to be so tempted.

This is an idea that really needs to be fleshed out. As it stands the theory does not interest me because I only pick up snippets here and there.
Rightly or wrongly, for all I understand, this Fenian conspiracy could be just another Royal conspiracy with a different cast.

Good luck.

[lynn cates]

Irish political situation

Hello Mike, Jon. There is a danger of oversimplifying the Irish political situation in 1888.

True, the Parnell Commission was to meet around October 23. But the Clan-na-Gael's mainstream group had called a truce to outrages simply to let Parnell have a go at ushering in home rule through constitutional means. (And, given their financial situation, the IRB pretty well danced to the tune played by the UB/Clan-na-Gael.)

IF one wishes to go this route, one might look ONLY at the "MJK" killing, and that because it occurred so near Sir Ed's meeting with Michael Davitt in Paris in which, according to Campbell, Davitt got a good bit of information from Sir Ed regarding his agents.

Please to recall that Devoy (if I recall properly) blamed Davitt for inadvertently leaking Parnell Commission information about Dr. Cronin to Alexander Sullivan, thereby leading to his violent "removal."

Cheers.
LC

[Michael W Richards]

Hello Mike, Jon. There is a danger of oversimplifying the Irish political situation in 1888.

True, the Parnell Commission was to meet around October 23. But the Clan-na-Gael's mainstream group had called a truce to outrages simply to let Parnell have a go at ushering in home rule through constitutional means. (And, given their financial situation, the IRB pretty well danced to the tune played by the UB/Clan-na-Gael.)

IF one wishes to go this route, one might look ONLY at the "MJK" killing, and that because it occurred so near Sir Ed's meeting with Michael Davitt in Paris in which, according to Campbell, Davitt got a good bit of information from Sir Ed regarding his agents.

Please to recall that Devoy (if I recall properly) blamed Davitt for inadvertently leaking Parnell Commission information about Dr. Cronin to Alexander Sullivan, thereby leading to his violent "removal."

Cheers.
LC

As you'll notice Lynn Im reluctant to refer to these parties as Fenians anymore, since Ive gained a little understanding of the situation at the time.....self Rule factions should suffice for my needs, because I am talking in broad strokes. I don't have a particular arm in mind, or any individuals, although I am inclined to see some connection with Millen, but I just think its an area that could provide some context.

Cheers

[The Good Michael]

Rightly or wrongly, for all I understand, this Fenian conspiracy could be just another Royal conspiracy with a different cast.

It is.

Mike

[lynn cates]

factions

Hello Mike. Thanks.

"I'm reluctant to refer to these parties as Fenians anymore, since I've gained a little understanding of the situation at the time."

Ah, that's good.

"[S]elf Rule factions should suffice for my needs, because I am talking in broad strokes."

But this may be far too broad.

"I don't have a particular arm in mind, or any individuals, although I am inclined to see some connection with Millen, but I just think it's an area that could provide some context."

Well, I can vouch for two violent groups.

1. The "Triangle"--Sullivan's break away faction from the Clan-na-Gael.

2. The "Irish National Invincibles"--a break away faction of the IRB.

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

another oversimplification

Hello Michael. Sigh. Yet another oversimplification?

Cheers.
LC

[Wickerman]

The possibility that another man may have murdered Stride, after the assault by the Schwartz suspect, did not go unnoticed by Swanson himself.

".....considering meet (if with a man other than Schwartz saw) the time for the agreement & the murderous action would I think be a question of so many minutes, five at least, ten at most, so that I respectfully submit it is not clearly proved that the man that Schwartz saw is the murderer, although the more probable of the two."

Indeed, given the available evidence, this is true, but equally true that justifiable doubt exists, and this was acknowledged.

[lynn cates]

truth and correct timing

Hello Jon. Of course, Swanson's thinking here seems conditioned by:

1. The truth and correct timing of Schwartz's story.

2. The truth and correct timing of Dimshits's story.

Cheers.
LC

[Hunter]

What other conditions were Swanson supposed to go by? He was assessing the weight of the evidence as he had it, and the the possibilities that might encompass. He didn't have the luxury entertained by Ripperologists to summarily dismiss evidence based on a theory.