Did BS-man murder Liz Stride?

[Phil H]

Yes, Abby - look at what he said. I think it might well have been an attempt to exonerate himself, with the feigned belligerence as additional cover.

Phil

[DVV]

Come back, Tom Wescott !

[Digalittledeeperwatson]

Despite knowing better.

Ah, shame you have no discernment. That was serious.

Phil

Fine Phil H, I'll bite. I was joking. Wow, let it be known far and wide the power of the winking smiley.

[Digalittledeeperwatson]

Hold up.

Hello DLDW.

"Well, one simple explanation is she wasn't pushed down."

In which case, the Schwartz story is false and may be discounted.

Cheers.
LC

Should have been clearer. She wasn't pushed down when she was killed. Or rather, she wasn' killed when pushed down. That doesn't immediately make IS's statement false. To large of a gap to breach. Eager beaver, slow down.

[Cogidubnus]

Hi Dig

My take is that she was almost yanked off her feet by the scarf and had her throat severed either on the way down, or just as she got there - she'd started calling out in alarm but wasn't very loud firstly because of the scarf and the speed of the takedown and then because her throat was cut...

But it's all highly speculative, because we don't know exactly what Israel saw, what he thought he saw or what he might've missed...Swanson tells us a good deal, but it would be much easier if his original statement was still around...wonder exactly where all those missing documents are now?

Probably mostly in rich men's collections...

Every good wish

Dave

[Digalittledeeperwatson]

Hullo Lynn.

Hello DLDW.

Do you place much credence in Fanny's powers of observation?

Cheers.
LC

I don't place much credence on any of these people because I don't know them. Simply though, she had eyes and was right there. Brown and Goldstein as well. I find it very unlikely that if Stride was murdered early and Dimshitz arrived that early as well that no one noticed any of the goings on until about 1. Goldstein would've passed by the yard with a bunch of people standing about. The confirmation of it not occuring, as best as can be had is a lack of a pony and cart. She may have been murdered early sure, but Dimshitz was not there before Goldstein passed. Unless there was a really big cover up. If Goldstein can be proved to be a member then I'll bite.

[Cogidubnus]

Hello again Dig

And James Brown? He saw no crowd of club members milling around earlier...but he heard the rumpus start up in the street about 1am or soon after...

All the best

Dave

[Digalittledeeperwatson]

Hullo Cogi

I can get behind the notion so long as she is in the spot where she was found. And I wonder if that might have been to dark to see much of anything. Plus IS is behind BSM when he notices him start the assault? I'm either confused due to sickness or something doesn't work out here.

[Digalittledeeperwatson]

There's the rub.

Hello again Dig

And James Brown? He saw no crowd of club members milling around earlier...but he heard the rumpus start up in the street about 1am or soon after...

All the best

Dave

Dimshitz arriving that early is out. Body discovery that early out too. Def after, say12:50 at earliest.

[Cogidubnus]

Hi Dig

My surmise is that he'd drawn almost level with the couple when it kicked off and he instinctively took a diagonal across the street to avoid trouble, passing them by in doing so...On hearing the first of the muffled screams he then turned back, saw more of the action and simultaneously clocked Pipeman first crossing the street, then coming his way...and fled incontinently...not too far from either of the accounts...

All the best

Dave

[Digalittledeeperwatson]

Hullo Cogi.

That can work. So long as if she was indeed cut by BSM on the way down she was in the spot she was found. Still the question of visibility. But pretty solid.

[Cogidubnus]

Hi again

I think the murder occurred 1245 or thereabouts, (give or take, to satisfy Brown), and during the whole of Mrs Mortimers vigil and Goldsteins passing, the body was laying in the shadows until Diemschutz turned up at 1am ish...

I don't think Diemschutz disturbed the killer...I think Schwartz and Pipeman had already made him uneasy about hanging around any longer..let's be honest, he wasn't to know they'd fled - for all he knew they might be fetching immediate help and due back any time...

Best to try and keep an open mind though because it's still speculative...

All the best

Dave

[lynn cates]

Tom

Hello David.

"Come back, Tom Wescott!"

Indeed.

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

cachous

Hello DLDW. Thanks.

"She wasn't pushed down when she was killed. Or rather, she wasn't killed when pushed down."

Very well. Then the cachous came out between this episode and her killing?

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

body position

Hello Dave.

"My take is that she was almost yanked off her feet by the scarf and had her throat severed either on the way down, or just as she got there - she'd started calling out in alarm but wasn't very loud firstly because of the scarf and the speed of the take down and then because her throat was cut..."

But this must be AFTER her confrontation with BSM. Look at her body position.

Cheers.
LC