Did BS-man murder Liz Stride?

[Cogidubnus]

Contingently, then?

Agreed Lynn...we do need to consider the source...

All the best

Dave

[Stewart P Evans]

We simply do not know...

We do not have a witness statement made by Mrs Mortimer. All we have are conflicting press reports which are, at best, second-hand and worthless as evidence. Those with theories of their own will cherry pick these press reports for content that assists their favoured theory or opinion. We simply do not know exactly what she said so the speculation is, at the end of the day, valueless in proving anything. My guess is that she had nothing of actual relevance to say.

[Cogidubnus]

Fair enough Stewart, but leaving out the press reports altogether leaves us very little indeed...not even most of the inquest accounts...which to be fair, I guess, is what you've been saying all along...a sort of ripper minimalism

All the best

Dave

[lynn cates]

Hear, hear.

Hello Stewart.

"My guess is that she had nothing of actual relevance to say."

Hear, hear.

Cheers.
LC

[Stewart P Evans]

Inquest Reports

I believe that I have stated in the past my opinion that of all the press reports those on the inquests are, perhaps, the most accurate.

For a start you have other press reports to compare them with, the reporters sat in at the inquests and took verbatim notes of the proceedings and there was little or no room for invention or fantasy.

[Cogidubnus]

Hi Stewart

Again, fair enough - I hadn't seen your comment elsewhere before

Thanks

Dave

[Cogidubnus]

Brown was of course a witness at the inquest and Goldstein does appear in Swanson's report of 19th October:

about 1 a.m 30th Leon Goldstein of 22 Christian Street Commercial Road, called at Leman St. and stated that he was the man that passed down Berner St. with a black bag at that hour, that the bag contained empty cigarette boxes & that he had left a coffee house in Spectacle Alley a short time before.

Like the author of the marginal note attached to this report, one has to ask:

Who saw this man go down Berner Street or did he come forward to clear himself in case any questions might be asked

If it wasn't Fanny Mortimer, then who was it? In the absence of the police statements we simply don't know.

All the best

Dave

[Abby Normal]

I can't agree with that, murder is a big step up from assault. In fact, all the witness actually see's is Liz Stride being pulled and/or pushed around, no punches, no kicks, no knives.

Is it a fair assumption that what our witness see's is an attempt to make Liz Stride go away? Who knows, what is certain however, is that a lot can happen in fifteen minutes. It is impossible to even make an educated guess, based on the evidence we have, as to whether 'BSM' killed Liz Stride or not.

'he saw a man stop and speak to a woman, who was standing in the gateway. He tried to pull the woman into the street, but he turned her round and threw her down on the footway and the woman screamed three times, but not very loudly.'

If we take our witness literally, then her attacker tries to pull her onto the street not further into the shadows of the yard, further more....

'but finding that he was followed by the second man, he ran as far as the railway arch, but the man did not follow so far'.

....does this leave us with a witness to the rest of the attack, and if so, are we to suppose that 'BSM' kills Stride in full view of said witness??

It is an unanswerable question, at best it's a 50/50 guess.

Hi sox
Fair enough. Imho though I think it's more like 20/80. Bs man was described as wearing a peaked cap and other witnesses described a man with a peaked cap seen with Liz. So I think it's fair to assume that she had been spending some time with bs/peaked cap man before the assault.

I also think the Scwartz may have actually witnesses bs man in the act of cutting her throat during the assault, but did not see the knife under the circumstances.

Plus I find that time frame is too short for another person to come along (if bs man was not her killer)and for Liz to then quickly accompany this new man into the alley. Especially so soon after being attacked. Do you really think she could have recovered emotionally and physically so soon after being assaulted by BS man? I don't. And what are the chances another person with violence on their mind would just happen to show up minutes after the first assault by bs man? I would say pretty slim. The time frame involved just seems too short IMHO for the killer to show up, no one else see him, Liz hook up with him and then go into the yard.

[Phil H]

Oh, I think BS man killed her, but he was likely Kidney.

Phil

[Jon Guy]

Have you seen the tash on Kidney, Phil. He looked like Jimmy Edwards, and not the small brown moustache that BS Man wore.

[Phil H]

I'm not going to base anything on a description drawn from Schwartz. Let alone a comparison with an artist's drawing.

Phil

[lynn cates]

missed

Hello Dave. Thanks.

Sorry I missed this.

"Well that does rather depend on what if anything's been said between them."

Like, "I am jack . . ."? (heh-heh)

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

right

Hello Jon.

"Have you seen the tash on Kidney, Phil. He looked like Jimmy Edwards, and not the small brown moustache that BS Man wore."

Now you're talking.

Cheers.
LC

[Abby Normal]

Oh, I think BS man killed her, but he was likely Kidney.

Phil

Hi Phil
Do you think if kidney killed her, He would show up drunk and distraught at the police station making a scene and criticizing the police for the poor job they did?
Does this sound like the behavior of a guilty man to you?

[DVV]

Yes.
Kidney was a cunning ruffian with removable shoulders.