Why No Stride Mutilations ?

[Sunny Delight]

Never mind sunny there is a Schwartz statement, we all know that . So id just ignore such attempts to suggest otherwise.

Yeah best not to go down that particular rabbit hole. We don't have a statement but we do have a very good summary of what Schwartz said. It isn't hard to work out where everyone stood and what the lighting would have been like. Added to that through the statement we can see that the incident lasted mere seconds. With Lawende possibly ten seconds or so.

[FISHY1118]

Never mind sunny there is a Schwartz statement, we all know that . So id just ignore such attempts to suggest otherwise.

[Trevor Marriott]

You are assuming these questions were not asked nor indeed pondered by the Police.

Assume nothing as far as Ripperology is concerned

By all accounts Schwartz had a decent view in not bad lighting. Not for very long.

There is no statement from Schwartz nor any inquest testimony so that is pure conjecture on your part and we do have to wonder why there was no statement, or why he wasnt called, the police had an address for him at 22 Ellen Street Whitechapel

Say for instance Lawende had described a man wearing a deerstalker hat- well the two descriptions would be incompatible. Or someone of slim build. How could you square off broad shoulders and slim. Or if Lawende had said the man was 40. Age can be a relative thing but such a big age gap would raise questions. Look at those statements. They are too similar to be coincidences.

But the descriptions as i stated could have fitted half of the men in Whitechapel you should read bth the coroners summing up and Swansons report regarding the identification issues

https://www.trevormarriott.co.uk

[FISHY1118]

Hi Herlock,

While we don't often agree, I was thinking along similar lines. With clock sync errors, the Schwartz incident could easily have taken place around 12:30. Suppose Stride was with Parcelman outside the gates, listening to the music when she spots Kidney approaching. She tells Parcelman to stand back in the shadows while she deals with him. The encounter proceeds as you suggest and Parcelman and Stride then cross the road to be seen by Smith. In this case, clock sync errors's evidence is reduced in importance as a PC has seen Stride alive after the incident which was what it looked like to Schwartz - a domestic dispute.

Cheers, George

Hi George , I guess i could [with out the eloquence and detail of a Jeff Hamm post type response] reiterate as ive already done ,the caution one needs to consider when useing the ''clock sync errors'' debate to invent new senarios where certain victims are concerned.

In Strides case moving the B.S incident back to 12.30am that might allow for a new synopsis , ,Schwartz, Morris Eagle , Diemschutz and Dr Blackwells version of events would all have to be no doubt dissmissed .

I just think thats a bit to much to ask for very obvious reasons . That is to say , all four of their accounts of the event that night ''Actually Fit''

1 Eagle enters the club via the yard through the gates at 12.40am , his in the club at 12.41/2 [No dead body]

2. Schwartz see the incident with Stride and B..S at 12.45am

3. B.S man kills Stride after Schwartz and Pipeman leave the scene 12.47/8

4 Diemschutz discovers the body at exactly 1.00am [ 'exactly' were his words , leaving ony 12mins without Strides body being discovered by someone else.Its surely reasonable to except that no one came into the yard befor Diemschutz? . The 12.30/5 time leaves an awful long time without Strides discovery given what was going on in and around the club [not impossible, but how likley?] .

5. Dr Blackwell consults his watch its 1.16am, he advises the body had been dead from 20 mins to half an hour . This fits almost exactly if indeed Stride was killed at 12.45/7




For me, as is the case with all the murders, id prefer to work with what is known than what is not . Just sayin. Cheers Fishy

[GBinOz]

It’s also not impossible that Schwartz could have been wrong about the time Harry. The incident could have occurred around 12.30 just before Smith passed along Berner Street and it might or might not have involved Stride. I don’t see anything far-fetched about someone looking back and getting an estimation of time wrong by 15 minutes. I reckon that we’ve all done it numerous times.

Its all speculation of course but Kidney might have been involved in a way. If he’d arrived drunk and seen Stride at say 12.30 outside the gates waiting for someone he might have tried to get her to come home with him. Hence the pulling and the confrontation (it might also explain why she didn’t scream very loudly…she was used to rough treatment from Kidney and didn’t feel in fear for her life). They then part company but Stride, for whatever reason doesn’t go far then returns to the yard where she meets her killer. Kidney at the Inquest has something of the ring of truth about him for me (which means next to nothing of course) when he describes drunkenly trying to get the police to do more to catch Stride’s killer and that he could have done a better job. Perhaps he had feelings of guilt about leaving her to her fate? And naturally he wouldn’t have wanted to admit to have seeing Stride just before she was killed so a lie at the Inquest would have been unsurprising.

No evidence for any of that of course but who knows?

Hi Herlock,

While we don't often agree, I was thinking along similar lines. With clock sync errors, the Schwartz incident could easily have taken place around 12:30. Suppose Stride was with Parcelman outside the gates, listening to the music when she spots Kidney approaching. She tells Parcelman to stand back in the shadows while she deals with him. The encounter proceeds as you suggest and Parcelman and Stride then cross the road to be seen by Smith. In this case, Schwartz's evidence is reduced in importance as a PC has seen Stride alive after the incident which was what it looked like to Schwartz - a domestic dispute.

Cheers, George

[Sunny Delight]

The questions that must be asked because identification issues are frought with danger

How dark was it?
how far away was the witness?
How long did the witness have the man in his view?
Had he seen the man before?
Did he know his name?
Had he seen him since?
would he recognise him again?
Anything distinct about the man?

It seems very few of these questions were asked of the witnesses

The description you refer to could have no doubt fitted half of the men living in Whitechapel

https://www.trevormarriott.co.uk

You are assuming these questions were not asked nor indeed pondered by the Police. A lot of material has not made its way to us and therefore we are at a disadvantage compared to those there at the time. We can answer some through looking at their witness statements and comparing that with the geography of the area for instance. By all accounts Schwartz had a decent view in not bad lighting. Not for very long. Lawende was quite close also and had a decent view in ok lighting. Again it was not for very long. Say for instance Lawende had described a man wearing a deerstalker hat- well the two descriptions would be incompatible. Or someone of slim build. How could you square off broad shoulders and slim. Or if Lawende had said the man was 40. Age can be a relative thing but such a big age gap would raise questions. Look at those statements. They are too similar to be coincidences.

[Aethelwulf]

What hasn't really been mentioned is just how similar Schwartz and Lawende's witness descriptions were. This is what convinces me that B.S man was the murderer.

Schwartz: Man aged around 30, 5 ft 5 inches in height, fair complexion, dark hair, small brown moustache, well built- broad shoulders. Dark trousers and jacket. Cap with a peak.

Lawende: Man aged around 30, 5ft 7 or 8 inches in height, fair complexion, fair moustache, medium build, pepper and salt jacket(grayish color with shades of black), grey cap with a peak, red handkerchief tied around neck.

For two witnesses to see a man with victims so close to their time of death and for their descriptions to be similar in the way they are says to me this is the same man. The descriptions are not identical but no one should expect them to be. But if we look at it both say the man was about 30, he had a moustache, fair complexion, peaked cap, of a medium to strong build and similar in height. Clothing is slightly different however salt and pepper is not wholly inconsistent with dark clothing.....

There is a good analysis of Schwartz's eye witness account here (http://williambury.org/blog6/2018/11...itness-memory/) and the point by point comparison with Bury is quite telling (especially when you consider he is the only suspect with proven form for killing a woman in the early hours of the morning and mutilating her abdomen and genitals, who can be placed in the east end at the right time, known to visit and drink in Whitechapel, used prostitutes, carried one/possibly two knives, described by his habitually abused wife as 'cunning and hid his temper before people').

Should also be noted that Levy who was with Lawende and saw the same man described him as only slightly taller than the woman he was stood next to, which with a hat and boots would align closely with what Schwartz's estimate.

[Trevor Marriott]

What hasn't really been mentioned is just how similar Schwartz and Lawende's witness descriptions were. This is what convinces me that B.S man was the murderer.

Schwartz: Man aged around 30, 5 ft 5 inches in height, fair complexion, dark hair, small brown moustache, well built- broad shoulders. Dark trousers and jacket. Cap with a peak.

Lawende: Man aged around 30, 5ft 7 or 8 inches in height, fair complexion, fair moustache, medium build, pepper and salt jacket(grayish color with shades of black), grey cap with a peak, red handkerchief tied around neck.

For two witnesses to see a man with victims so close to their time of death and for their descriptions to be similar in the way they are says to me this is the same man. The descriptions are not identical but no one should expect them to be. But if we look at it both say the man was about 30, he had a moustache, fair complexion, peaked cap, of a medium to strong build and similar in height. Clothing is slightly different however salt and pepper is not wholly inconsistent with dark clothing.....

The questions that must be asked because identification issues are frought with danger

How dark was it?
how far away was the witness?
How long did the witness have the man in his view?
Had he seen the man before?
Did he know his name?
Had he seen him since?
would he recognise him again?
Anything distinct about the man?

It seems very few of these questions were asked of the witnesses

The description you refer to could have no doubt fitted half of the men living in Whitechapel

https://www.trevormarriott.co.uk

[Sunny Delight]

What hasn't really been mentioned is just how similar Schwartz and Lawende's witness descriptions were. This is what convinces me that B.S man was the murderer.

Schwartz: Man aged around 30, 5 ft 5 inches in height, fair complexion, dark hair, small brown moustache, well built- broad shoulders. Dark trousers and jacket. Cap with a peak.

Lawende: Man aged around 30, 5ft 7 or 8 inches in height, fair complexion, fair moustache, medium build, pepper and salt jacket(grayish color with shades of black), grey cap with a peak, red handkerchief tied around neck.

For two witnesses to see a man with victims so close to their time of death and for their descriptions to be similar in the way they are says to me this is the same man. The descriptions are not identical but no one should expect them to be. But if we look at it both say the man was about 30, he had a moustache, fair complexion, peaked cap, of a medium to strong build and similar in height. Clothing is slightly different however salt and pepper is not wholly inconsistent with dark clothing.....

[Herlock Sholmes]

Im more incline to think everything happen after Eagle entered the club via the yard at around 12.40/41. There was, according to him no dead body on the ground , Schwartz time 12.45 for the incident with Stride fits , ,Diemschutz discoverd of the body at exactly 1.00am [ his words ] Dr Blackwells time ''I consulted my watch on my arrival, and it was 1.16 a.m'' . Working back ,also fits his opinion how long Stride had been deceased.

I think its far more easier to work with what we know than what we dont . In this instance anyway.

I wouldn’t dispute that Stride had to have been killed after Eagle had returned. Apart from Blackwell though we have no way of confirming exact times so we have conflicts which, although aren’t fatal to the series of events, give us leeway for various ‘recreations’ of the order that things might have happened. I’m not suggesting that Schwartz did pass at around 12.30 but I’d say that it wouldn’t be impossible for such an error of time estimation to have occurred. If this was what happened (and it’s a big ‘if’ of course) then it would mean that the Schwartz incident and Stride’s murder were two unconnected events.

In suggesting that the man that Schwartz saw ‘might’ have been Kidney, who lied about being there for obvious reasons, has its own issues of course. He would have been identified if stood in front of Schwartz. Then again….

Could we explain Schwartz absence from the Inquest by suggesting that Kidney found him and threatened him to keep his mouth shut?. So Schwartz in effect went into hiding somewhere?

[FISHY1118]

My suggestion (and it’s complete speculation of course and I’m not exactly promoting it) was what if the Schwartz incident didn’t result in Stride’s death? For example (and with approximated times.)

Stride is waiting for someone (call him Mr X) at the gates.
Kidney arrives drunk at around 12.30 and tries to get Stride to return home with him - hence the pulling and the not very loud screams. Schwartz sees this as he passes.
After a couple of minutes he gives up and walks away (as does Pipeman)
Stride heads toward Fairclough Street (perhaps hoping to find Mr X ?) but stops to talk to someone.
Smith walks alone Berner Street and sees them.
They turn the corner into Fairclough Street as the man tries to get Stride to go with him but she refuses.
They separate and Stride returns to the gates to wait for Mr X and gets killed by ?

I’d even say that it wouldn’t be impossible for Schwartz to have been 30 minutes out. It’s easier done than we might think (especially at a time when many people relied on things like church and factory bells.)

Im more incline to think everything happen after Eagle entered the club via the yard at around 12.40/41. There was, according to him no dead body on the ground , Schwartz time 12.45 for the incident with Stride fits , ,Diemschutz discoverd of the body at exactly 1.00am [ his words ] Dr Blackwells time ''I consulted my watch on my arrival, and it was 1.16 a.m'' . Working back ,also fits his opinion how long Stride had been deceased.

I think its far more easier to work with what we know than what we dont . In this instance anyway.

[Herlock Sholmes]

but if you remove schwartz and bs man & lipski, why is eddowes' apron below the gsg? it is too much of a stretch to say it was already there and jtr just happened to drop the apron piece at that spot.

I’m not particularly proposing the above Wulf. I was just suggesting that like other witnesses Schwartz might have been wrong about the time that he passed along Berner Street and so if he had passed earlier he might have witnessed an incident that didn’t actually end in Stride’s death (and in one ‘version’ perhaps BS man was a drunken Kidney trying to get her to come back home with him?) And then, sometime between 12.30ish and 1.00 for whatever reason Stride returned to the gates where she met her killer before 1.00. It doesn’t affect Eddowes apron ending up in Goulston Street.

[Aethelwulf]

My suggestion (and it’s complete speculation of course and I’m not exactly promoting it) was what if the Schwartz incident didn’t result in Stride’s death? For example (and with approximated times.)

Stride is waiting for someone (call him Mr X) at the gates.
Kidney arrives drunk at around 12.30 and tries to get Stride to return home with him - hence the pulling and the not very loud screams. Schwartz sees this as he passes.
After a couple of minutes he gives up and walks away (as does Pipeman)
Stride heads toward Fairclough Street (perhaps hoping to find Mr X ?) but stops to talk to someone.
Smith walks alone Berner Street and sees them.
They turn the corner into Fairclough Street as the man tries to get Stride to go with him but she refuses.
They separate and Stride returns to the gates to wait for Mr X and gets killed by ?

I’d even say that it wouldn’t be impossible for Schwartz to have been 30 minutes out. It’s easier done than we might think (especially at a time when many people relied on things like church and factory bells.)

but if you remove schwartz and bs man & lipski, why is eddowes' apron below the gsg? it is too much of a stretch to say it was already there and jtr just happened to drop the apron piece at that spot.

[Herlock Sholmes]

I guess the only problem id have with moving the Schwartz time back to 12.30am is, what do we do with Morris Eagle ?

If his time is correct ,he claims ... ''I returned about twenty minutes to one. I tried the front door, but, finding it closed, I went through the gateway into the yard, reaching the club in that way''. Surley he couldnt have missed a dead body on the ground. ?

My suggestion (and it’s complete speculation of course and I’m not exactly promoting it) was what if the Schwartz incident didn’t result in Stride’s death? For example (and with approximated times.)

Stride is waiting for someone (call him Mr X) at the gates.
Kidney arrives drunk at around 12.30 and tries to get Stride to return home with him - hence the pulling and the not very loud screams. Schwartz sees this as he passes.
After a couple of minutes he gives up and walks away (as does Pipeman)
Stride heads toward Fairclough Street (perhaps hoping to find Mr X ?) but stops to talk to someone.
Smith walks alone Berner Street and sees them.
They turn the corner into Fairclough Street as the man tries to get Stride to go with him but she refuses.
They separate and Stride returns to the gates to wait for Mr X and gets killed by ?

I’d even say that it wouldn’t be impossible for Schwartz to have been 30 minutes out. It’s easier done than we might think (especially at a time when many people relied on things like church and factory bells.)

[FISHY1118]

It’s also not impossible that Schwartz could have been wrong about the time Harry. The incident could have occurred around 12.30 just before Smith passed along Berner Street and it might or might not have involved Stride. I don’t see anything far-fetched about someone looking back and getting an estimation of time wrong by 15 minutes. I reckon that we’ve all done it numerous times.

Its all speculation of course but Kidney might have been involved in a way. If he’d arrived drunk and seen Stride at say 12.30 outside the gates waiting for someone he might have tried to get her to come home with him. Hence the pulling and the confrontation (it might also explain why she didn’t scream very loudly…she was used to rough treatment from Kidney and didn’t feel in fear for her life). They then part company but Stride, for whatever reason doesn’t go far then returns to the yard where she meets her killer. Kidney at the Inquest has something of the ring of truth about him for me (which means next to nothing of course) when he describes drunkenly trying to get the police to do more to catch Stride’s killer and that he could have done a better job. Perhaps he had feelings of guilt about leaving her to her fate? And naturally he wouldn’t have wanted to admit to have seeing Stride just before she was killed so a lie at the Inquest would have been unsurprising.

No evidence for any of that of course but who knows?

I guess the only problem id have with moving the Schwartz time back to 12.30am is, what do we do with Morris Eagle ?

If his time is correct ,he claims ... ''I returned about twenty minutes to one. I tried the front door, but, finding it closed, I went through the gateway into the yard, reaching the club in that way''. Surley he couldnt have missed a dead body on the ground. ?