Why No Stride Mutilations ?

[Herlock Sholmes]

In that case, he must have been talking about Eagle and Lave. You can't have it both ways.

No it doesn’t. Their times were estimations too. George, Frank and Eff have all done timelines which show how events probably panned out.

It's about time we rid this subject of all the miserable sods who are too gutless to step out of their comfort zones, out of fear of confronting unwanted truths.

There’s no such thing as a ‘comfort zone.’ The notion that I (and others) would have some kind of misguided, sentimental attachment to a certain version of events is beyond ludicrous. I have no theory to defend which requires Schwartz to be considered genuine, I’m undecided on whether Stride was a ripper victim or not. Your constant accusations just don’t stand up to scrutiny in regard to myself or anyone else. Jeff, to take but one example, is about as fair-minded an open as it gets and yet he doesn’t think that the evidence points to any kind of cover-up, is he a ‘gutless, miserable sod in your eyes? Is Frank? Is George?

The fact is that it’s you that won’t confront the unwanted truth……that nothing mysterious occurred. If you approach any topic with the ‘conspiracy goggles’ on you will undoubtedly find something but you are just rigidly reluctant to accept the obvious. That times shouldn’t be taken as being exact. The people do make errors. That the Press can exaggerate occasionally. That people can misinterpret.

The only unwarranted truth is that you absolutely, desperately want to find a mystery. You so desperately want to be the one to find something new that you can’t help but let your imagination run riot. And in doing this you have to turn a blind eye to the inconvenient…

Who was the genius that said “I know the ideal person to be our false witness; a Hungarian bloke who can’t speak English?
How lucky were they that the ‘man who wasn’t there’ had a real, checkable reason for being in a place that he never actually was?
How lucky were they that this man was so monumentally gullible that he ignored any very obvious possibility that some unknown witness in Berner Street might have been able to show the police that the incident didn’t occur?
How monumentally gullible was this man about placing himself alone at the scene of a murder in a series of horrific murders that were being blamed, in many quarters, on foreigners (tick) and Jews (tick)? Perhaps he hadn’t heard of the ripper?
How monumentally dumb were our plotters by ignoring all of the vastly more obvious and more effective alternative ‘plots’ in favour of this rubbish one?
How unlucky we’re they that Schwartz cocked up this childishly simple (if crap) plan?
Why didn’t the plotters make sure that all of those involved, and who would be questioned by the Police, had there timings tied up?
How could they have come up with such a plan in such a short space of time?
We have no known, or reasonable, motive for this kind of plot.
If we allow for a very reasonable, and very understandable margin for error on timings it has been shown time and again that the events in Berner Street could very easily have occurred without mystery. Only a point blank desire for mystery and the complete refusal to accept a margin for error prevents the acceptance of this.
How many times, when hearing of a murder in the street, do we learn of plots and false witnesses. Or is there a prosaic explanation 99.99% of the time?

All of this and more should be more than enough to tell us that there was no plot or cover-up. Simply a tragic murder involving fallible, human witnesses.

[John Wheat]

there should be a separate area of case book called 'totally b*ll*cks stupid conspiracy theories' for this sort of nonsense. leave all the nutters to it.

I agree Aethelwulf. I also think the Diary should be in this section.

Cheers John

[FISHY1118]

And i repeat, There is no such evidence that Eagle and Lave were were on the spot where Schwartz saw the attact on Stride at 12.45am


Morris Eagle, who also affirmed, said: I live at No. 4, New-road, Commercial-road, and travel in jewellery. I am a member of the International Workmen's Club, which meets at 40, Berner-street. I was there on Saturday, several times during the day, and was in the chair during the discussion in the evening. After the discussion, between half-past eleven and a quarter to twelve o'clock, I left the club to take my young lady home,'' ''going out through the front door. I returned about twenty minutes to one. I tried the front door, but, finding it closed, I went through the gateway into the yard, reaching the club in that way.''

Its safe to say Eagle was in the club at 12.40/1 am more than enough time for him to completley miss the whole schwartz /Stride incident .

Your making a total balls up of this whole affair . Move on .!!!!

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Schwartz cannot have known that no one in Berner Street could have proved that he wasn’t there any time around 12.45. To shoehorn your cover up in you have to presume monumental stupidity or gullibility on the part of Schwartz. But hey, in a fantasy anything goes.

In that case, he must have been talking about Eagle and Lave. You can't have it both ways.

Its about time we rid this subject of barking mad conspiracists.

It's about time we rid this subject of all the miserable sods who are too gutless to step out of their comfort zones, out of fear of confronting unwanted truths.

[Sunny Delight]

Its about time we rid this subject of barking mad conspiracists.

I would agree. There is no harm in putting ideas out there for debate but the conspiracy nonsense is so ridiculous at times that it becomes off putting. Sometimes you feel like not posting because you don't get anything sensible back sometimes.

[Herlock Sholmes]

there should be a separate area of case book called 'totally b*ll*cks stupid conspiracy theories' for this sort of nonsense. leave all the nutters to it.

But we’d get accused of being sentimentally attached to the ‘old stabilised theories’ Wulf.

[Aethelwulf]

Its about time we rid this subject of barking mad conspiracists.

there should be a separate area of case book called 'totally b*ll*cks stupid conspiracy theories' for this sort of nonsense. leave all the nutters to it.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Your looking out a window for half an hour notion, is totally contrived. Either Schwartz felt that minute risk was worth it, or the men he claimed to see were named Morris Eagle and Joseph Lave. Or possibly both were true. Whatever the case, someone(s) lied.

Schwartz cannot have known that no one in Berner Street could have proved that he wasn’t there any time around 12.45. To shoehorn your cover up in you have to presume monumental stupidity or gullibility on the part of Schwartz. But hey, in a fantasy anything goes.

The Sacred Cow of Berner Street has been grazing long enough. It's time to cut its throat.

Its about time we rid this subject of barking mad conspiracists.

[Herlock Sholmes]

So we wouldn't have any issues because we have have faith in Israel Schwartz - a man whose identity we are unsure of.

What on earth is going on here?

You keep inventing childish cover ups. That’s what’s going on. That’s all that ever ‘go’s on’ when you post. You’re obsessed with it. No cover up. No conspiracy. No plot. No mystery.

[Herlock Sholmes]

The exact what? The exact second? Minute? Or the 5 minutes or more that the entire incident would have occupied?

Where do you get 5 minutes from? Not even close to 5 minutes. One minute tops.

It doesn't need to be exact - fairly accurate is probably good enough, and if it's not, then there are witnesses other than Brown to consider. Besides, Brown passed within the near vicinity of the murder site, twice, within a 5 minute period. Why did he see a couple by the school, but no one running along his own street? Why didn't the couple see or hear anything unusual? If one of the couple was indeed Stride, then she was not at the gateway being assaulted, she was quietly talking to a man, just as she had been seen doing earlier, by Marshall.

He didn’t see them first time because they were around the corner. The incident occurred when he was in the shop.


Many versus one. Sounds like a good bet.

It’s no bet. The chances of him lying about being there are so small that they’re not worth wasting time and effort on.

Schwartz placed himself and 3 others in the street. The incident begins when the first of the 4 arrives, and ends when the last departs - in whatever manner. Bracketing the event to Schwartz's point of view is arbitrary. However, it is necessary to do this to maintain the belief in the event lasting a few seconds. Your problem here is that Stride could conceivably have been standing at the gates for a few minutes or more. BS man could have continued his behavior after the other men leave the scene - claiming to know that BS man killed, and when he did so, is just being assumed to fit the event into the few seconds you need to fit it into. However, the earlier arrival and later departure of those Schwartz claimed to see, could also have been witnessed, but evidently you think that a multi-minute 'Schwartz incident' is too risky to suppose. Do you have confidence in Schwartz - yes or no?

I don’t see a single reason for even vaguely suspecting Schwartz of not being there. My position is that he was there.

Who is 'we'? Calling this explanation 'very reasonable', doesn't make it so. Stride was seen by Smith, with a man carrying a parcel. Brown didn't see a parcel and Schwartz didn't see this man at all. What is your very reasonable explanation for that?

Brown didn’t see a parcel because he didn’t see it. Schwartz didn’t see this man because they weren’t there at exactly the same time.

Oh, so this couple did not include Stride, but they had been in Berner street, and didn't see Stride when they were. So where was Stride at this point? On the Dutfield's Yard loo?

25 yards is not far enough on a quiet street, to not hear screams and shouts. Sound refracts around objects and bounces off hard surfaces. The incident would have been heard. The 'chase' would have been seen. Neither were. Someone lied.

No one lied.

[Varqm]

It's possible he wanted to kill two.Or he escaped to the city side,maybe had a temporary hideout and coincidentally happened upon Eddowes.Probably took 12 to 15 minutes from Berner to Houndstitch..Eddowes was just recently released.This is the only time he killed two,that it was a coincidence was probable.

[FISHY1118]

There is a possibility for the lack of mutilations that hasn't been mentioned here yet;
'Jack' WANTED to kill 2 women that night.

If you look at it from that point of view, it's quite a clever plan.
1. Kill victim in Met territory
2. No mutilations because killing is the only motive. No organs to walk about with (could get messy).
3. Move to City territory (escaping early Met response)
4. Kill Victim and mutilate (his reward)
5. Move back to Met territory (avoiding early City response)*
6. Leave apron.

Result; He's killed 2 (his plan) and got both Police forces hot and bothered.

*obviously he's moving back into Met territory which is dangerous but he still at least is moving further away from Berner Street.

I'm not sure about the hour gap before the apron is found. I always thought Long may have simply missed it. But when i went to Goulston Street recently, the space was far smaller than i imagined and I find it difficult to believe Long would have missed it. My small idea is that 'Jack' lived in Goulston Street and simply waited for Long to pass before throwing the apron out of the window..

This whole suggestion of course posits an intelligent game-playing, cunning Ripper.. and that's the thing. I'm not sure I do believe in that sort of Ripper.. Ha!

All the best
Cody

Interesting points Cody .

[Cody75111]

There is a possibility for the lack of mutilations that hasn't been mentioned here yet;
'Jack' WANTED to kill 2 women that night.

If you look at it from that point of view, it's quite a clever plan.
1. Kill victim in Met territory
2. No mutilations because killing is the only motive. No organs to walk about with (could get messy).
3. Move to City territory (escaping early Met response)
4. Kill Victim and mutilate (his reward)
5. Move back to Met territory (avoiding early City response)*
6. Leave apron.

Result; He's killed 2 (his plan) and got both Police forces hot and bothered.

*obviously he's moving back into Met territory which is dangerous but he still at least is moving further away from Berner Street.

I'm not sure about the hour gap before the apron is found. I always thought Long may have simply missed it. But when i went to Goulston Street recently, the space was far smaller than i imagined and I find it difficult to believe Long would have missed it. My small idea is that 'Jack' lived in Goulston Street and simply waited for Long to pass before throwing the apron out of the window..

This whole suggestion of course posits an intelligent game-playing, cunning Ripper.. and that's the thing. I'm not sure I do believe in that sort of Ripper.. Ha!

All the best
Cody

[FISHY1118]

Your making up your own stories as you go along , what indeed is going on here . G eez Louise


Its beginning to look more and more like Lechmere all over again. The hundred different ways he was the killer , with not anything at all except circumstancial evidents and made up scenarios to suggest he was .

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Not in the slightest. There was no one on the street for that short duration of time. This is immeasurably more likely than the suggestion that a non-English speaking Israel Schwartz would turn up at a Police station and pretend that he was at the scene of a murder (with no-one to verify his presence or to verify that he himself didn’t attack Stride himself and without knowing whether someone would have popped up to say “well I was looking out of my window from 12.30 until Mr Diemschitz arrived and I saw no argument in the street and I could see the gates of the yard from my window.”

Your looking out a window for half an hour notion, is totally contrived. Either Schwartz felt that minute risk was worth it, or the men he claimed to see were named Morris Eagle and Joseph Lave. Or possibly both were true. Whatever the case, someone(s) lied.

The idea really should be kicked well into the long grass.

The Sacred Cow of Berner Street has been grazing long enough. It's time to cut its throat.