Why No Stride Mutilations ?

[FISHY1118]

Hi Fishy,

Why would an interrupted JtR result in her body being found before Diemshutz arrives? All that had to happen was that JtR leaves and nobody else arrives until Diemshutz does.

"Jackus Interuptus" (ok, for those who do know Latin it's probably clear I don't! ) is a bit of a catch-all statement that encompasses JtR leaving for some reason only he really knows. The interuption event could be something external, as exemplified by the original 1888 idea that the external event was Deimshutz's arrival. Other possibilities exist, though, such as (and I'm just trying to recall things that have been suggested in the past)
1) someone opened the club door or a window, but didn't come out.
2) people came near an open window while talking
3) the singing in the club suddenly stopped - inciting fear they've noticed things
4) a sound from the street made it appear someone was approaching
5) not sure if this has been suggested, but it might be possible that Goldstein's passing by, looking at the club (but not seeing into the dark alley), was spotted by JtR, but then Mrs. M. would have to go inside at about that time to allow for JtR to leave without her seeing him - I rather doubt this, but it is dramatic and would make for a good movie scene. Oh, and Mrs. M. has to come outside just after JtR gets Stride into the ally as well. Hmmm, I think I'm seeing why it's not been suggested before, but I'll leave it just for a jolly.

However, there is no necessary reason why the interruption actually has to be external, but rather could have been an internal process.
For example:
1) if one goes with the idea that JtR tends to spend some time with his victim, toying with her in a way through conversation and making her relax, etc, and then he suddenly attacks, well, all of those things do not appear to have happened with Stride. The doctors suggest she was possibly fleeing him, and he grabs her scarf, etc, so it appears something went wrong. And if you couple that with B.S. = JtR, then there doesn't appear to have been much of that initial phase, and it didn't go "right" for him. That initial phase, the build up to the attack, if it was important to JtR in terms of him getting satisfaction, or it was required for him to build up to the point where he then moved on to mutilation, then the interruption might have been in his head "It wasn't going right - it isn't satisfying - he hasn't built himself up enough" etc, and so he leaves, because it's not what he needs.
2) something about all the noise in the club just spooks him, or makes the area just too uncomfortable. After his close call with Chapman, he might be more wary about areas with people about, so again, he leaves after cutting her throat.
3) he notices how wet and muddy the ground is in the area, and decides he doesn't want to get tell tale mud stains on his trousers.

and I'm sure we can think of all sorts of internal thoughts that could arise that simply made him think "No, something isn't right about this one". What those could be will depend upon one's view of JtR - a psychopathic or psychotic killer. The more one leans to psychotic, the more bizarre the ideas become (all the way to something simple like "The voices told him "no, not this one" to the more bizarre "She offered me a sweet, so she's nice" for example - yah, the "she's nice" seems contradicted by the fact he still killed her, but psychotic thoughts are not really all that rational or internally consistent).

Anyway, what I'm getting at, is that the only real way we can know if JtR was interrupted (externally or internally) is to determine if Stride really was a victim of JtR. If she was, then something made him deviate from his normal signature of abdominal mutilations. Of course, if she's not, then that alone becomes the explanation - very very few murders involve this type of mutilation after all, so he wasn't interrupted per se, he just isn't JtR.

We can't use the lack of mutilations to prove Stride was not a victim of JtR, - all that does is open the possibility she wasn't. As such, we need to focus on determining if Stride was killed by the same person who killed Nichols, Chapman, Eddowes, and Kelly, and if we decide she was then we know something resulted in him not going on to mutilate Stride. That "something", be it external or internal, becomes the "interruption." And if she's not a victim of JtR, then that becomes the explanation for the lack of mutilations. But regardless of who killed her (JtR or not JtR), that doesn't tell us what time the murder occurred given that JtR's interruption doesn't have to be an external event and so working out that question doesn't tell us if Deimshutz as the person of first discovery is plausible.

It is the time of her murder that determines whether or not Deimshutz finds her first, not who killed her. Who killed her, and what time that was, are independent bits of information. Given the preponderance of information points to Deimshutz being the first to find her, then we can try and work out the comings and goings of all the other people to see if we can then isolate the time window during which the murder occurred. But if we do that, it still will not tell us one way or the other if the person who killed her during that time window was JtR or not. That's what I mean by independent bits of information; answering one of those questions does not provide information as to the answer of the other.

- Jeff

''Why would an interrupted JtR result in her body being found before Diemshutz arrives? All that had to happen was that JtR leaves and nobody else arrives until Diemshutz does.''


Hi Jeff , Just the type of point i was making , unless he was actually disturbed by some phyical presence [hence the body would have been discovered befor big D found her],why would the sound of any external noises nearby spook him ? It didnt seem to bother him with the Chapman murder as i mentioned .

Thats one of my resasons why B.S man cut her thoat and took off, otherwise i see jack doing the mutilation with the 13 or so minutes he had with out interuption[ which he didnt] ,to me its just a very simple more than likely senario in my opinion B.S killed stride but wasnt JtR .

.

[Sunny Delight]

''Why would an interrupted JtR result in her body being found before Diemshutz arrives? All that had to happen was that JtR leaves and nobody else arrives until Diemshutz does.''


Hi Jeff , Just the type of point i was making , unless he was actually disturbed by some phyical presence [hence the body would have been discovered befor big D found her],why would the sound of any external noises nearby spook him ? It didnt seem to bother him with the Chapman murder as i mentioned .

Thats one of my resasons why B.S man cut her thoat and took off, otherwise i see jack doing the mutilation with the 13 or so minutes he had with out interuption[ which he didnt] ,to me its just a very simple more than likely senario in my opinion B.S killed stride but wasnt JtR .

.

You are looking at this in hindsight. B.S man did not know he had 13 minutes to mutilate Stride. The reason he would be much more spooked by Berner Street is because it was a blind corner. At least in Hanbury Street he had a fence to shield him. The initial attack on Stride is witnessed by two people if Schwartz is to be believed. For me B.S man is also JTR and the reason he does not mutilate is likely as Jeff states an internal or external reason which we cannot prove but which seems likely. The cut throat is JTR's giveaway in my opinion. These types of murders were very rare and even more so if it was an attack on the street. Often throat cuttings were domestics done in a domestic setting.

[FISHY1118]

You are looking at this in hindsight. B.S man did not know he had 13 minutes to mutilate Stride. The reason he would be much more spooked by Berner Street is because it was a blind corner. At least in Hanbury Street he had a fence to shield him. The initial attack on Stride is witnessed by two people if Schwartz is to be believed. For me B.S man is also JTR and the reason he does not mutilate is likely as Jeff states an internal or external reason which we cannot prove but which seems likely. The cut throat is JTR's giveaway in my opinion. These types of murders were very rare and even more so if it was an attack on the street. Often throat cuttings were domestics done in a domestic setting.

The killer didnt know he only had 7mins at Mitre Square either but he still managed to mutilate Eddowes.

However on the other hand ,as ive said when you compare the Hanbury st murder and Mitre Square to some extent, they were both thwart with just as much danger as Berner st for jtr being caught or spooked , given the same external and internal reasons .

[Aethelwulf]

in my opinion B.S killed stride but wasnt JtR .

.

My take on this is:

• We know for a fact JtR was out that night (Eddowes) a mere 45 mins to an hour after BS man/Stride incident
• BS man shouted a Jewish slur, likely at Schwartz, who was said to have a noticeable Jewish appearance
• Part of Eddowes' apron was found below the GSG, also seemingly venting frustration at the Jewish community

The above makes it highly likely that BS man killed Stride as was JtR IMO.

[FISHY1118]

My take on this is:

• We know for a fact JtR was out that night (Eddowes) a mere 45 mins to an hour after BS man/Stride incident
• BS man shouted a Jewish slur, likely at Schwartz, who was said to have a noticeable Jewish appearance
• Part of Eddowes' apron was found below the GSG, also seemingly venting frustration at the Jewish community

The above makes it highly likely that BS man killed Stride as was JtR IMO.

So that being the case you believe he cut her throat but was interupted from doing the mutilations and took off to mitre square ?

By interupted i mean

1 . Just heard a noise ?

2. Heard someone aproaching ?

[Ms Diddles]

The killer didnt know he only had 7mins at Mitre Square either but he still managed to mutilate Eddowes.

However on the other hand ,as ive said when you compare the Hanbury st murder and Mitre Square to some extent, they were both thwart with just as much danger as Berner st for jtr being caught or spooked , given the same external and internal reasons .

I'd postulate that he may have felt slightly emboldened in Mitre Square as there were several potential exits.

In Hanbury Street and Berner St there was a greater risk of being cornered.

All the locations were fairly risky to my mind.

Your point that he did not abort the mutilations in Hanbury Street when Cadosch was moving around, yet we assume an interruption at Berner St due to the lack of mutilations is an interesting one.

I'd never really considered that before.

It's merely a guess, but I suppose that a bunch of beered up, fully awake blokes from the club on Berner Street perhaps posed more of a threat than the slumbering / just wakening households of Hanbury St....

[Abby Normal]

Schwartz statement claims, [and its been done to death as to its accuracy so i need not go there] he saw B.S Man attack Stride and pull her to the ground at 12.45am if we leave a 2-3 minute say to 12.48am for her murder , [if B.S is the killer] why didnt he mutilate her the same way he did Eddowes ?

Eddowes injuries were all over and done with in less than 5-7 minutes ,so with 10-12 mins before Diemschutz drove his cart into the yard ,and the killer had know way of knowing that Diemschutz would do this , there was ample time for mutilations to take place .

Dr Blackwell . ''I consulted my watch on my arrival, and it was 1.16 a.m''[Coroner] Did you form any opinion as to how long the deceased had been dead? - From twenty minutes to half an hour when I arrived

So if B.S man isnt Jack the Ripper and he just assaulted Stride and left [as some would claim it was a Domestic Incident ] then someone else would then have to step up after B.S, Schwartz, and Pipeman had moved on. As some would claim a '' Mysteryious Phantom'' Lurking/watching the whole event unfold in the shadows ready to strike once they left .

Now the Phantom Lurker aka JtR has to get to Stride in a matter of minutes to kill her before 12.50am still leaving time for a series of mutilations , which going agaisnt his M.O he decline to demonstrate before the discovery of Strides body at 1.00am by Diemschutz [ Note Diemschutz words ''Exactly'' 1.00am]

My conclusion/opinion B.S man killed Stride but wasnt Jack the Ripper , and JtR did not enter the yard to kill Stride after B.S left the scene.

bs man killed stride and was jack the ripper. there were no mutilations because the area was too hot-he was seen assaulting her and the club was crowded and noisy and he took off after cutting her throat.

all the witnesses that night describe a suspect wearing a peaked cap-marshall, smith, schwartz, lawende and co. the ripper was wearing a peaked cap the night of the double event and attacked stride but was interupted so he left to find another victim, which he did with eddowes. It aint rocket science.

[Sunny Delight]

The killer didnt know he only had 7mins at Mitre Square either but he still managed to mutilate Eddowes.

However on the other hand ,as ive said when you compare the Hanbury st murder and Mitre Square to some extent, they were both thwart with just as much danger as Berner st for jtr being caught or spooked , given the same external and internal reasons .

The killer didn't know at any scene how long he had. We can't in hindsight say he had 13 minutes why didn't he mutilate? In his mind he could have had 30 seconds or 10 minutes. That is the same at every scene. So something happened in Berner Street to make him change. Looking at the evidence it is clear that if the killer was B.S man he was seen initiating an attack on the victim. It may have been as simple as him being afraid Stride could identify him so he killed her. It could be that he was spooked. It could be that something we don't know about made him think again and he fled the scene or maybe he thought twice that the witnesses could be fetching a Policeman. But it is as simple as this- if BS man is JTR then something happened to make him change. If he wasn't JTR then that alone explains it.

[c.d.]

It may have been as simple as him being afraid Stride could identify him so he killed her.

Hello Sunny,

Identify him as what? The man who pushed her?

c.d.

[c.d.]

And if he killed Stride because she could identify him, why allow Schwartz to run off since he could identify him as well? Why not quickly dispatch Stride and chase after Schwartz?

c.d.

[Sunny Delight]

It may have been as simple as him being afraid Stride could identify him so he killed her.

Hello Sunny,

Identify him as what? The man who pushed her?

c.d.

Fair point. I would imagine the Police wouldn't have been too concerned by such a thing anyways. Something happened to make him change his behaviour that night in regards mutilation and the only thing that stands out is being witnessed initiating an assault on the victim.

[Sunny Delight]

And if he killed Stride because she could identify him, why allow Schwartz to run off since he could identify him as well? Why not quickly dispatch Stride and chase after Schwartz?

c.d.

Yeah it's a fair point as I say. I probably didn't think it through enough firstly- I can admit when I am wrong for sure. As an historian that is always key so you improve your thought processes the next time.

[c.d.]

Yeah it's a fair point as I say. I probably didn't think it through enough firstly- I can admit when I am wrong for sure. As an historian that is always key so you improve your thought processes the next time.

And you have my respect for that, I assure you. If only everyone on here could approach the case like that we would all be better off.

c.d.

[Mark J D]

... The killer didnt know he only had 7mins at Mitre Square either but he still managed to mutilate Eddowes...

Surely the fun of placing Lechmere in the role here is that he specifically walked over to a place whose layout -- and police patrols -- he will have known from the time those streets were on or near his old route to work? It's infamously a 'double event' -- and he's connected with *both locations*...




M.

[JeffHamm]

''Why would an interrupted JtR result in her body being found before Diemshutz arrives? All that had to happen was that JtR leaves and nobody else arrives until Diemshutz does.''


Hi Jeff , Just the type of point i was making , unless he was actually disturbed by some phyical presence [hence the body would have been discovered befor big D found her],why would the sound of any external noises nearby spook him ? It didnt seem to bother him with the Chapman murder as i mentioned .

Thats one of my resasons why B.S man cut her thoat and took off, otherwise i see jack doing the mutilation with the 13 or so minutes he had with out interuption[ which he didnt] ,to me its just a very simple more than likely senario in my opinion B.S killed stride but wasnt JtR .

.

Hi Fishy,

There's a key difference between Hanbury Street's and Berner Street's "interruptions". In Hanbury Street it appears he would have been surprised by the appearance of Cadoche (I'm referring here to the 2nd time he emerges in particular). Given the location, he has no option but to hide behind the fence. Given we know he requires fairly little time (from the Eddowes murder), he may have quickly mutilated Chapman (he has more light so presumably can do things a bit faster) and left before Cadoche returns or (more likely) after Caodoche went back inside (a 2nd need to hide). Regardless, in Hanbury street he must have presumed he would not be interrupted, and appears to have got that wrong.

In Berner Street, however, there is clearly lots of activity. There is all sorts of "information" that someone may be likely to come out. Moreover, the noise from the club would make it harder for him to monitor his surroundings. He's now in an environment where he might decide he is likely to be interrupted yet again, and here he has few options as to how to hide. So after killing Stride he could easily just decide "this isn't a good spot".

We also have to consider the possibility that he was interrupted by Cross/Lechmere's arrival as well in the Nichols case. That would mean that twice now someone has come along, so he's probably going to be a bit concerned about that and Berner Street is just too full of activity. Mitre Square, however, ended up being isolated with very little sighs of activity. A location better suited to him, and he may have been a bit emboldened by the fact he was able to kill Stride in such an active area as well.

Anyway, I think the comparison with Hanbury Street is a good one to consider. There are some differences between them, though, that need to be part of that consideration. I'm sure there's more than just the ones I've mentioned, and there's more than one way to interpret all of them together.

- Jeff