Why No Stride Mutilations ?

[caz]

The killer didnt know he only had 7mins at Mitre Square either but he still managed to mutilate Eddowes.

However on the other hand ,as ive said when you compare the Hanbury st murder and Mitre Square to some extent, they were both thwart with just as much danger as Berner st for jtr being caught or spooked , given the same external and internal reasons .

Hi FISHY,

But he'd have been more fired up if he had just left Berner Street unsatisfied, so that could have made the difference and made him less cautious than he might otherwise have been. The fact that he still got away with it might have been down to luck rather than good judgement, but the extra adrenaline rush would have been a factor in his daring.

Love,

Caz
X

[FISHY1118]

In the coroners summing up:

At 12:30 p.m. the constable on the beat (William Smith) saw the deceased in Berner-street standing on the pavement a few yards from Commercial-street, and he observed she was wearing a flower in her dress. A quarter of an hour afterwards James Brown, of Fairclough-street, passed the deceased close to the Board school. A man was at her side leaning against the wall, and the deceased was heard to say, "Not to-night, but some other night."

James Brown: I live in Fairclough-street, and am a dock labourer. I have seen the body in the mortuary. I did not know deceased, but I saw her'' about'' a

quarter to one on Sunday morning last.


''About'' quarter to one is not 12.45am tho is it ?



''I saw a man and woman standing at the corner of the Board School. I was in the road just by the kerb, and they were near the wall.''

If they were standing on the corner at ''about'' quarter to 1.00 [about could be anytime leading up to that time] ,then swartz statement at 12.45 could easily have them placed where he said they were.


The inquest did not determined where Liz Stride was at 12:45, you did ,however its just speculation and unproven .

[caz]

Jeff, I do wonder if a couple of things were at play in regards the attack on Stride being out of character.

1) As attacks continue the perpetrator often begins to feel invincible. Chances begin to be taken that get even more wild and disorganised(particularly if somewhat disorganised at the beginning). The impulsiveness also begins to become more erratic. We see this will serial killers of this kind. His attack on Stride could have been driven by this.

2) Israel Schwartz mentions in his Press statement(I prefer Police statements but the two are very similar in Schwartzs regard) that B.S man appeared intoxicated. Did this intoxication lower his inhibitions still further? It is notable that this is the earliest attack that takes place. Was there time in the other instances for some of the intoxication to wear off?

3) We often assumed that the Ripper was approached by his victims but what if he actually approached them? He approaches Stride with the usual line but she does not respond as the others have and this upsets him leading to an impulsive assault through anger of being rejected. Speculative I know but worth thinking about.

Hi Sunny D,

I do think the ripper had it all his own way with Nichols and Chapman in the 'approach' phase, whoever initiated the contact. They were particularly vulnerable and desperate, and a man like the ripper was likely to see all women out alone at night as the same - "willing for a shilling", or at least thruppence. When he first saw Stride, he'd have viewed her in the exact same light and would not have expected or appreciated it if she proved him wrong by not immediately rolling over. She would be his third or fourth victim since early the previous month, so arguably more wary than the others, and less likely to respond well to threats or promises. It's even possible that a rough approach with Stride had worked fine for him previously, and her reaction caused him to adapt, changing his approach with Eddowes, if they were the couple seen being friendly near Mitre Square.

Love,

Caz
X

[caz]

Could it have been the case that BS man wanted to take her somewhere more private so that he could kill and mutilate her but Stride was trying to lead him into the yard? In effect saying “Why go anywhere else? We’ll be just fine here.” So he pulls her toward the street while she was pulling toward the yard. This might have begun quite non-aggressively; an attempt at persuasion on both sides, it might even have began in quite good humour (at least on the surface) then perhaps Stride dug her heels in when she couldn’t understand what was wrong with their current location. Tempers might have flared and BS man might just have panicked and decided to silence her by cutting her throat. As Schwartz said that she screamed but not very loudly this might indicate that she wasn’t in fear of her life.

This is very much how I could see it playing out, Herlock.

The victims were not inanimate objects, like chess pieces, to be moved around at will, to fit another person's idea of who they were and what each one was doing and thinking when she encountered her killer.

If some posters to these boards can think of them in this way, how much more likely is it that JtR did too, and was simply ill-prepared for when a woman didn't behave as the others had, or as he intended her to?

Love,

Caz
X

[caz]

Not to say your scenario couldnt have played out that way , However The attempted ''pulling into the street'' might just have been instantanious, who knows , but for what ever reason B.S man was trying to forcibly take her somewhere she didnt want to go , which to goes against what he did with the other victims .

But if he was JtR and his previous victims had put up little or no resistance, regardless of any lack of charm he showed them, that could explain the difference with Stride, surely?

Same killer + different victim = different scenario with different reactions from each player.

All women are not the same.

Love,

Caz
X

[caz]

Had Stride been using the yard as a location for sex, previous to meeting the BS man? If she had, why had no one noticed? Or was this coincidently the very first time she had wanted to use that location?

Who said she wanted, or was planning, to use that location for sex? If she was there when BS man approached her with threatening behaviour, she may simply have felt safer staying put, where club members were coming and going, in case he turned really nasty, rather than going anywhere else, with or without him.

By the way, your digging heels in scenario does sound like the escalating quarrel of the Star account. Just sayin'.

So?

Love,

Caz
X

[Herlock Sholmes]

Not to say your scenario couldnt have played out that way , However The attempted ''pulling into the street'' might just have been instantanious, who knows , but for what ever reason B.S man was trying to forcibly take her somewhere she didnt want to go , which to goes against what he did with the other victims .

Ive never been totally certain on whether Stride was a ripper victim or not but if she was then the killer might have simply been unhappy with the location hence a desire to go somewhere more out of the way. The location is the biggest source of any doubt that I have. Near an open gate with people potentially walking past a very few feet away and a door to a club with the sound of singing coming from upstairs.

[JeffHamm]

Jeff, I do wonder if a couple of things were at play in regards the attack on Stride being out of character.

1) As attacks continue the perpetrator often begins to feel invincible. Chances begin to be taken that get even more wild and disorganised(particularly if somewhat disorganised at the beginning). The impulsiveness also begins to become more erratic. We see this will serial killers of this kind. His attack on Stride could have been driven by this.

Yes, I think that's a good point to consider. It's possible that after the two previous murders, particularly as he successfully avoided being spotted by Cadoche and may have avoided being spotted by Cross/Lechmere, he may now feel like he's uncatchable and the busy location is not a problem for him. Going on to kill Eddowes would also reflect, in part, this sense of invincibility.

2) Israel Schwartz mentions in his Press statement(I prefer Police statements but the two are very similar in Schwartzs regard) that B.S man appeared intoxicated. Did this intoxication lower his inhibitions still further? It is notable that this is the earliest attack that takes place. Was there time in the other instances for some of the intoxication to wear off?

I would think inhibitions would be lower while intoxicated. A lot of serial murderers also drink or use drugs during their murders. Because of that, I tend to think that JtR could probably have been found (if not recognized as such) in a pub, and I suspect he probably regularly frequented one around the area of Commercial and Hanbury (within a 5 minute walk of there probably). I have no proof of that, of course, but not all ideas are evidence based and sometimes we just speculate on things (this being an example). But drink does lower inhibitions and if one has a rage inside them, it becomes more likely to manifest in one's actions after drinking. Who knows, maybe the murders stopped because he quit drinking, recognizing he would sooner or later get caught if he continued?

3) We often assumed that the Ripper was approached by his victims but what if he actually approached them? He approaches Stride with the usual line but she does not respond as the others have and this upsets him leading to an impulsive assault through anger of being rejected. Speculative I know but worth thinking about.

Entirely possible. I've always sort of thought that JtR probably approached his victims actually, but there's nothing to show they didn't speak first and engaged him. That part of the sequence (initial encounter) is unknown to us, which in a way means we really don't know if B.S. and Stride is different. I suppose Hutchinson's description of Astrakhan Man's meeting MJK is the only other statement about a potential JtR meeting his victim and his description is that he approached her ("...She went away toward Thrawl Street. A man coming in the opposite direction to Kelly tapped her on the shoulder and said something to her. ..." found here). But of course there's controversy over Hutchinson's account, and even if he's accurate on that part, we don't know if Astrakhan Man = JtR.

If we go with the idea that he meets his victim, they go off together with him posing as a client, and then he begins his attack, we have to consider when in that sequence he had the intention of murder. What I mean is, did JtR intend to murder at the time he approached his victim (or once they approached him), or did something happen between them when they got to the location that set him off then? If he gets "triggered" at the crime scene, then it is quite likely he's a regular user of the local prostitutes. In fact, even if he already had the intention to murder, he is likely to be a regular customer (that's very common among prostitute killers). But if it is something they said at the crime scene that sets him off, then perhaps your idea that Stride said something to anger him right away. Perhaps he requested something and they refused him, and rejection sets him off. Or they said something cheeky and he took it as an insult, etc. All of this is unknowable, of course, but if what sets him off is something that occurs during his interaction with the victim then yes, it becomes entirely possible that Stride "crossed his line" as soon as they met.

On the other hand, if he intends murder at the point he engages his victim, then Stride seems to break his usual sequence, and as I've argued before, that deviation from his ideal sequence of events could be why he abandons her after killing her and doesn't go on to mutilate.

We have so little information that basically almost anything is possible, making them all improbable of course, but that doesn't mean we can't consider various possibilities. I just don't think it's wise for us to get too convinced by our creativity, so I just want to restate that all of these ideas I'm mulling over are just that, ideas, not facts.

- Jeff

[Joshua Rogan]

Who knows, maybe the murders stopped because he quit drinking, recognizing he would sooner or later get caught if he continued?

Shades of the suspect who walked into a cab shelter and signed the pledge?

[NotBlamedForNothing]

James Brown: I live in Fairclough-street, and am a dock labourer. I have seen the body in the mortuary. I did not know deceased, but I saw her'' about'' a

quarter to one on Sunday morning last.


''About'' quarter to one is not 12.45am tho is it ?



''I saw a man and woman standing at the corner of the Board School. I was in the road just by the kerb, and they were near the wall.''

If they were standing on the corner at ''about'' quarter to 1.00 [about could be anytime leading up to that time] ,then swartz statement at 12.45 could easily have them placed where he said they were.


The inquest did not determined where Liz Stride was at 12:45, you did ,however its just speculation and unproven .

JB: I went indoors, and when I had nearly finished my supper I heard screams of "Police" and "Murder." That was about a quarter of an hour after I had seen the man and woman.

The 12:45 estimate would seem to be fairly accurate. Brown's witnessing of a couple on his way home from the shop, but not on his way to it, seems to coincide with the arrival of the couple who spoke to the press and Mrs. Mortimer.

A young girl had been standing in a bisecting thoroughfare not fifty yards from the spot where the body was found. She had, she said, been standing there for about twenty minutes, talking with her sweetheart, but neither of them heard any unusual noises.

FM: A young man and his sweetheart were standing at the corner of the street, about 20 yards away, before and after the time the woman must have been murdered, but they told me they did not hear a sound.

We also have Joseph Lave placing himself on the street in the 12:45 period, and reporting to have seen nothing unusual. All of these witnesses must be moved out of the way, to clear the scene for The Sacred Cow of Berner Street.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Who said she wanted, or was planning, to use that location for sex? If she was there when BS man approached her with threatening behaviour, she may simply have felt safer staying put, where club members were coming and going, in case he turned really nasty, rather than going anywhere else, with or without him.

What do you suppose was her purpose for being in the gateway?

Where club members were coming and going? Isn't that question begging?

So?

So the Star man might have done his best to determine what happened, and report it faithfully.

[FISHY1118]

JB: I went indoors, and when I had nearly finished my supper I heard screams of "Police" and "Murder." That was about a quarter of an hour after I had seen the man and woman.

The 12:45 estimate would seem to be fairly accurate. Brown's witnessing of a couple on his way home from the shop, but not on his way to it, seems to coincide with the arrival of the couple who spoke to the press and Mrs. Mortimer.

A young girl had been standing in a bisecting thoroughfare not fifty yards from the spot where the body was found. She had, she said, been standing there for about twenty minutes, talking with her sweetheart, but neither of them heard any unusual noises.

FM: A young man and his sweetheart were standing at the corner of the street, about 20 yards away, before and after the time the woman must have been murdered, but they told me they did not hear a sound.

We also have Joseph Lave placing himself on the street in the 12:45 period, and reporting to have seen nothing unusual. All of these witnesses must be moved out of the way, to clear the scene for The Sacred Cow of Berner Street.

What we dont have is Joseph Lave,s official witness testimony at the the Stride inquest, so his version of events must therefor be treated with speculation and unreliabilityl if it especially came in the form of a press report . '['in the 12.45 period doesnt quiet cut it tho does it'' , thats a silly quote really isnt it that could be anytime,, geez louise]


Theres no point going over Brown and Fanny Mortimer again and again as ive already said in previous post, there is just no record anywhere of anybody claiming at 12.45am what schwartz claimed in his official statement. Only b.s ,pipeman and Schwartz were on that spot at 12.45am as the official inquest report clearly shows .[Stay away from the press ]

There is just no valid reason to exclude Schwartz eyewitness account in exchange for Browns , Mortimer and Lave.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

What we dont have is Joseph Lave,s official witness testimony at the the Stride inquest, so his version of events must therefor be treated with speculation and unreliabilityl if it especially came in the form of a press report . '['in the 12.45 period doesnt quiet cut it tho does it'' , thats a silly quote really isnt it that could be anytime,, geez louise]

Dismissing all press reports as being unreliable, is extremist. However, if you want to throw away a large amount of evidence, simply because it conflicts with the evidence of a man who didn't even make it to the inquest, fine. On the other hand, Schwartz's police statement can be no more honest and reliable than the man himself. So who was Israel Schwartz and how honest and reliable was he? Neither man he claimed to see was ever definitely identified, and Schwartz's own identity is unknown to modern researchers.

If Lave's timing doesn't 'cut it', then perhaps you could tell us when he was on the street. Was it earlier, when PC Smith saw Stride with Parcelman, perhaps? On the other hand, how could you know that Schwartz's timing was accurate? Was his timing an estimate, an accurate reading of an inaccurate clock, or an accurate reading of an accurate clock? We can never know.

Theres no point going over Brown and Fanny Mortimer again and again as ive already said in previous post, there is just no record anywhere of anybody claiming at 12.45am what schwartz claimed in his official statement.

Exactly! The chances of what he claimed to see and hear being noticed by no one, is slim. Someone or someones was probably lying.

Only b.s ,pipeman and Schwartz were on that spot at 12.45am as the official inquest report clearly shows .[Stay away from the press ]

Neither Schwartz nor the mythical creatures - BS man and Pipeman - were mentioned at the inquest.

There is just no valid reason to exclude Schwartz eyewitness account in exchange for Browns , Mortimer and Lave.

It is not only his account that should be doubted, at least to some extent, but also the feeble reason he gave for being on Berner street at that time of night.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Yes, I think that's a good point to consider. It's possible that after the two previous murders, particularly as he successfully avoided being spotted by Cadoche and may have avoided being spotted by Cross/Lechmere, he may now feel like he's uncatchable and the busy location is not a problem for him. Going on to kill Eddowes would also reflect, in part, this sense of invincibility.



I would think inhibitions would be lower while intoxicated. A lot of serial murderers also drink or use drugs during their murders. Because of that, I tend to think that JtR could probably have been found (if not recognized as such) in a pub, and I suspect he probably regularly frequented one around the area of Commercial and Hanbury (within a 5 minute walk of there probably). I have no proof of that, of course, but not all ideas are evidence based and sometimes we just speculate on things (this being an example). But drink does lower inhibitions and if one has a rage inside them, it becomes more likely to manifest in one's actions after drinking. Who knows, maybe the murders stopped because he quit drinking, recognizing he would sooner or later get caught if he continued?



Entirely possible. I've always sort of thought that JtR probably approached his victims actually, but there's nothing to show they didn't speak first and engaged him. That part of the sequence (initial encounter) is unknown to us, which in a way means we really don't know if B.S. and Stride is different. I suppose Hutchinson's description of Astrakhan Man's meeting MJK is the only other statement about a potential JtR meeting his victim and his description is that he approached her ("...She went away toward Thrawl Street. A man coming in the opposite direction to Kelly tapped her on the shoulder and said something to her. ..." found here). But of course there's controversy over Hutchinson's account, and even if he's accurate on that part, we don't know if Astrakhan Man = JtR.

If we go with the idea that he meets his victim, they go off together with him posing as a client, and then he begins his attack, we have to consider when in that sequence he had the intention of murder. What I mean is, did JtR intend to murder at the time he approached his victim (or once they approached him), or did something happen between them when they got to the location that set him off then? If he gets "triggered" at the crime scene, then it is quite likely he's a regular user of the local prostitutes. In fact, even if he already had the intention to murder, he is likely to be a regular customer (that's very common among prostitute killers). But if it is something they said at the crime scene that sets him off, then perhaps your idea that Stride said something to anger him right away. Perhaps he requested something and they refused him, and rejection sets him off. Or they said something cheeky and he took it as an insult, etc. All of this is unknowable, of course, but if what sets him off is something that occurs during his interaction with the victim then yes, it becomes entirely possible that Stride "crossed his line" as soon as they met.

On the other hand, if he intends murder at the point he engages his victim, then Stride seems to break his usual sequence, and as I've argued before, that deviation from his ideal sequence of events could be why he abandons her after killing her and doesn't go on to mutilate.

We have so little information that basically almost anything is possible, making them all improbable of course, but that doesn't mean we can't consider various possibilities. I just don't think it's wise for us to get too convinced by our creativity, so I just want to restate that all of these ideas I'm mulling over are just that, ideas, not facts.

- Jeff

You beat me to it with that last point Jeff. Perhaps, if BS man was the ripper, he wasn’t intending to kill that night? So he’s trundling off home after a pint or eight when he bumps into Stride touting for business. He’s not so far gone though that he doesn’t realise that it’s hardly the ideal spot but basically she’d ‘lit the spark’ so he initially tries to persuade her to go somewhere more private. A bit of pulling goes on a she ends up on the floor. She’s adamant that she’s not going anywhere when ‘this’ was the ideal spot. He loses it and cuts her throat (in his drunken, confused state he might even have wondered if she’d come to think that he was the ripper?) He hears the singing upstairs, perhaps the side door is open or partially open (as per Mrs Diemschutz) or perhaps someone walks past the gate so he decides to scarper but the spark had been lit so he goes in search of another victim?

[FISHY1118]

Dismissing all press reports as unreliable, is extremist. However, if you want to throw away a large amount of evidence, simply because it conflicts with the evidence of a man who didn't even make it to the inquest, fine. On the other hand, Schwartz's police statement can be no more honest and reliable than the man himself. So who was Israel Schwartz and how honest and reliable was he? Neither man he claimed to see was ever definitely identified, and Schwartz's own identity is unknown to modern researchers.

If Lave's timing doesn't 'cut it', then perhaps you could tell us when he was on the street. Was it earlier, when PC Smith saw Stride with Parcelman, perhaps? On the other hand, how could you know that Schwartz's timing was accurate? Was his timing an estimate, an accurate reading of an inaccurate clock, or an accurate reading of an accurate clock? We can never know.



Exactly! The chances of what he claimed to see and hear being noticed by no one, is slim. Someone or someones was probably lying.



Neither Schwartz nor the mythical creatures - BS man and Pipeman - were mentioned at the inquest.



It is not only his account that should be doubted, at least to some extent, but also the feeble reason he gave for being on Berner street at that time of night.

''Neither Schwartz nor the mythical creatures - BS man and Pipeman - were mentioned at the inquest.''



I see were moving into the trevor marriot school of thought on this topic , enough said, time to move on.