Why No Stride Mutilations ?

[FISHY1118]

bs man killed stride and was jack the ripper. there were no mutilations because the area was too hot-he was seen assaulting her and the club was crowded and noisy and he took off after cutting her throat.

all the witnesses that night describe a suspect wearing a peaked cap-marshall, smith, schwartz, lawende and co. the ripper was wearing a peaked cap the night of the double event and attacked stride but was interupted so he left to find another victim, which he did with eddowes. It aint rocket science.

If B.S man was Jack the Ripper , where was he trying to drag Stride to? ''The man tried to pull the woman into the street, but he turned her round & threw her down on the footway ''

Ive yet to hear a decent explanation for this act that fits in with JtR .M.O ,everything about it is wrong in my opinion . Trying to drag her somewhere else while risking exposure , Stride perhaps now yelling even more kicking and screaming , bringing himself closer to witnesses for a better i.d , doesnt fit at all for me .

I think he killed her tho , but left right after that ,

Adding to that, there was more than enough time for JtR to mutilate her body [15 mins, Eddowes was done in 5] and yes possibly he was spooked,but to what extent ? It would have to be substancial amount of noise or imminent interuption for him to consider abandoning the scene, as he wasnt to perturbed with what was going on around him when he was killing Chapman .

If it was such a threat of immediate discovery , why wasnt the the body discovered well befor Diemschutz got to the scene .at 1.00 ?

As you say . Not rocket science , but a little more complicated than just B.S man scrambling away because he thought the scene was ''Too Hot ''

[FISHY1118]

Hi Fishy,

There's a key difference between Hanbury Street's and Berner Street's "interruptions". In Hanbury Street it appears he would have been surprised by the appearance of Cadoche (I'm referring here to the 2nd time he emerges in particular). Given the location, he has no option but to hide behind the fence. Given we know he requires fairly little time (from the Eddowes murder), he may have quickly mutilated Chapman (he has more light so presumably can do things a bit faster) and left before Cadoche returns or (more likely) after Caodoche went back inside (a 2nd need to hide). Regardless, in Hanbury street he must have presumed he would not be interrupted, and appears to have got that wrong.

In Berner Street, however, there is clearly lots of activity. There is all sorts of "information" that someone may be likely to come out. Moreover, the noise from the club would make it harder for him to monitor his surroundings. He's now in an environment where he might decide he is likely to be interrupted yet again, and here he has few options as to how to hide. So after killing Stride he could easily just decide "this isn't a good spot".

We also have to consider the possibility that he was interrupted by Cross/Lechmere's arrival as well in the Nichols case. That would mean that twice now someone has come along, so he's probably going to be a bit concerned about that and Berner Street is just too full of activity. Mitre Square, however, ended up being isolated with very little sighs of activity. A location better suited to him, and he may have been a bit emboldened by the fact he was able to kill Stride in such an active area as well.

Anyway, I think the comparison with Hanbury Street is a good one to consider. There are some differences between them, though, that need to be part of that consideration. I'm sure there's more than just the ones I've mentioned, and there's more than one way to interpret all of them together.

- Jeff

Hi Jeff , i think i covered some points in reply to abby if youd like to add thats cool.

[JeffHamm]

Hi Jeff , i think i covered some points in reply to abby if youd like to add thats cool.

Hi Fishy,

I agree that B.S.'s attack on Stride seems different from what is generally accepted as the "typical" progression for JtR - often described as something like he meets his victim, engages them in the guise of a client, then goes with them to a location, and only then blitz attacks them by, presumably, strangling them to at least unconsciouness before cutting their throat and engaging in abdominal mutilations.

B.S. appears to have just attacked her after very little "engagement", and the strangulation appears to be more of a "sudden jerk of her scarf as she fled", possibly enough to interfere with her being able to make a sound for a few seconds but long enough for him to kill her.

Now, first of all, we have no idea how the Nichols murder transpired, although many believe JtR probably met Nichols elsewhere we don't really know that for sure (and it's generally part of the Cross/Lechmere = JtR idea that they met in Buck's Row itself - perhaps she was circling through there while searching for clients for example). Who knows, but if they met there how do we know it wasn't more like Stride than, say, Chapman (where it seems he had to accompany her to the backyard). Similarly with Eddowes, if the Church Passage Couple are not Eddowes and JtR, or even if they are but the man isn't JtR or her killer, then Eddowes and JtR could again have met in passing in Mitre Square and another "Stride like" attack could have occurred. That seems less likely given the location of the murder in the Square, but we don't know for sure how it actually transpired.

So in short, one thing we have to wonder is just how different was B.S.'s attack on Stride different from other known JtR attacks?

But let's say our notion of how the other attacks unfoled is more or less correct, and B.S.'s attack on Stride is out of character (probably the more likely situation anyway).

Well, all that really let's us conclude is that the sequence of the attack was different, not that the attacker has to be a different person from JtR. Now, if JtR is not only gaining pleasure from the abdominal mutilations, but it is the whole encounter (explaining why the other 4 attacks seem to be similar in so many more ways than just having a cut throat and mutilation), then that would mean Stride has already deviated from what he needs, what drives him to commit these murders. It is just not going to be satisfying, and may already be unsatisfying by the time he's cut her throat. For example, if he gets some sort of pleasure out of the look of surprise and fear on their face during the strangulation phase, then that appears to have been denied him with Stride. And it may be during that phase that his "excitement" levels rise to the point he wants to engage in the abdominal mutilations (yes, I'm in full blown speculation mode here - there's no way for us to know what he thought, etc).

So again, if B.S. is JtR, then it may be the "internal" interruption was because the encounter, from the beginning, was just not to his satisfaction and he didn't get worked up enough to move on to the mutilation phase.

Remember, we can consider the possibility that JtR had a very specific sequence he was following, but that doesn't mean each instance will go "exactly to plan" - reality and fantasy rarely coincide. Stride may just be an example of that, it didn't "go right" for him, in which case that might be why he stopped and didn't bother with mutilations.

Of course, B.S. might also have been her killer and not be JtR too, we can't rule that out, but just because Stride wasn't mutilated doesn't mean she wasn't killed by JtR. The lack of mutilations might, however, tell us something about JtR if she was killed by JtR.

As for the "threat of interruption" and not being found until Deimshutz shows up, well, the large amount of obvious activity would threaten possible interruption, and so he might have left for that external reason (rather than the internal one above). But "threat" of interruption doesn't mean it had to happen - just had to seem like it was more probable to happen. In fact, he might have actually had more time with Stride than he did with Eddowes (presuming it's JtR here), but that's hindsight. At the time, it would seem like the opposite would be the case, but even JtR wasn't a fortune teller and couldn't know for sure what the future would hold.

- Jeff

[Sunny Delight]

Hi Fishy,

I agree that B.S.'s attack on Stride seems different from what is generally accepted as the "typical" progression for JtR - often described as something like he meets his victim, engages them in the guise of a client, then goes with them to a location, and only then blitz attacks them by, presumably, strangling them to at least unconsciouness before cutting their throat and engaging in abdominal mutilations.

B.S. appears to have just attacked her after very little "engagement", and the strangulation appears to be more of a "sudden jerk of her scarf as she fled", possibly enough to interfere with her being able to make a sound for a few seconds but long enough for him to kill her.

Now, first of all, we have no idea how the Nichols murder transpired, although many believe JtR probably met Nichols elsewhere we don't really know that for sure (and it's generally part of the Cross/Lechmere = JtR idea that they met in Buck's Row itself - perhaps she was circling through there while searching for clients for example). Who knows, but if they met there how do we know it wasn't more like Stride than, say, Chapman (where it seems he had to accompany her to the backyard). Similarly with Eddowes, if the Church Passage Couple are not Eddowes and JtR, or even if they are but the man isn't JtR or her killer, then Eddowes and JtR could again have met in passing in Mitre Square and another "Stride like" attack could have occurred. That seems less likely given the location of the murder in the Square, but we don't know for sure how it actually transpired.

So in short, one thing we have to wonder is just how different was B.S.'s attack on Stride different from other known JtR attacks?

But let's say our notion of how the other attacks unfoled is more or less correct, and B.S.'s attack on Stride is out of character (probably the more likely situation anyway).

Well, all that really let's us conclude is that the sequence of the attack was different, not that the attacker has to be a different person from JtR. Now, if JtR is not only gaining pleasure from the abdominal mutilations, but it is the whole encounter (explaining why the other 4 attacks seem to be similar in so many more ways than just having a cut throat and mutilation), then that would mean Stride has already deviated from what he needs, what drives him to commit these murders. It is just not going to be satisfying, and may already be unsatisfying by the time he's cut her throat. For example, if he gets some sort of pleasure out of the look of surprise and fear on their face during the strangulation phase, then that appears to have been denied him with Stride. And it may be during that phase that his "excitement" levels rise to the point he wants to engage in the abdominal mutilations (yes, I'm in full blown speculation mode here - there's no way for us to know what he thought, etc).

So again, if B.S. is JtR, then it may be the "internal" interruption was because the encounter, from the beginning, was just not to his satisfaction and he didn't get worked up enough to move on to the mutilation phase.

Remember, we can consider the possibility that JtR had a very specific sequence he was following, but that doesn't mean each instance will go "exactly to plan" - reality and fantasy rarely coincide. Stride may just be an example of that, it didn't "go right" for him, in which case that might be why he stopped and didn't bother with mutilations.

Of course, B.S. might also have been her killer and not be JtR too, we can't rule that out, but just because Stride wasn't mutilated doesn't mean she wasn't killed by JtR. The lack of mutilations might, however, tell us something about JtR if she was killed by JtR.

As for the "threat of interruption" and not being found until Deimshutz shows up, well, the large amount of obvious activity would threaten possible interruption, and so he might have left for that external reason (rather than the internal one above). But "threat" of interruption doesn't mean it had to happen - just had to seem like it was more probable to happen. In fact, he might have actually had more time with Stride than he did with Eddowes (presuming it's JtR here), but that's hindsight. At the time, it would seem like the opposite would be the case, but even JtR wasn't a fortune teller and couldn't know for sure what the future would hold.

- Jeff

Jeff, I do wonder if a couple of things were at play in regards the attack on Stride being out of character.

1) As attacks continue the perpetrator often begins to feel invincible. Chances begin to be taken that get even more wild and disorganised(particularly if somewhat disorganised at the beginning). The impulsiveness also begins to become more erratic. We see this will serial killers of this kind. His attack on Stride could have been driven by this.

2) Israel Schwartz mentions in his Press statement(I prefer Police statements but the two are very similar in Schwartzs regard) that B.S man appeared intoxicated. Did this intoxication lower his inhibitions still further? It is notable that this is the earliest attack that takes place. Was there time in the other instances for some of the intoxication to wear off?

3) We often assumed that the Ripper was approached by his victims but what if he actually approached them? He approaches Stride with the usual line but she does not respond as the others have and this upsets him leading to an impulsive assault through anger of being rejected. Speculative I know but worth thinking about.

[FISHY1118]

Jeff, I do wonder if a couple of things were at play in regards the attack on Stride being out of character.

1) As attacks continue the perpetrator often begins to feel invincible. Chances begin to be taken that get even more wild and disorganised(particularly if somewhat disorganised at the beginning). The impulsiveness also begins to become more erratic. We see this will serial killers of this kind. His attack on Stride could have been driven by this.

2) Israel Schwartz mentions in his Press statement(I prefer Police statements but the two are very similar in Schwartzs regard) that B.S man appeared intoxicated. Did this intoxication lower his inhibitions still further? It is notable that this is the earliest attack that takes place. Was there time in the other instances for some of the intoxication to wear off?

3) We often assumed that the Ripper was approached by his victims but what if he actually approached them? He approaches Stride with the usual line but she does not respond as the others have and this upsets him leading to an impulsive assault through anger of being rejected. Speculative I know but worth thinking about.

2) Israel Schwartz mentions in his Press statement(I prefer Police statements but the two are very similar in Schwartzs regard) that B.S man appeared intoxicated. Did this intoxication lower his inhibitions still further? It is notable that this is the earliest attack that takes place. Was there time in the other instances for some of the intoxication to wear off?

Heres the problem with this point sunny , nowhere does Schwartz say B.S appeared intoxicated in his offical statement from Insp Swanson , its only when you look at the press report the phase ''appeared to be intoxicated'' exist [the star 1st oct 1888] and this is suggested by the reporter who wrote the article. Nowhere is there any ref from said reporter that Schwartz said that, so it should be treated as pure speculation and hearsay nothing more . So as always press reports are to be taken ever so carefully, sometimes in fact not at all when trying to ascertain what a witness may or may not have said .

[FISHY1118]

Hi Fishy,

I agree that B.S.'s attack on Stride seems different from what is generally accepted as the "typical" progression for JtR - often described as something like he meets his victim, engages them in the guise of a client, then goes with them to a location, and only then blitz attacks them by, presumably, strangling them to at least unconsciouness before cutting their throat and engaging in abdominal mutilations.

B.S. appears to have just attacked her after very little "engagement", and the strangulation appears to be more of a "sudden jerk of her scarf as she fled", possibly enough to interfere with her being able to make a sound for a few seconds but long enough for him to kill her.

Now, first of all, we have no idea how the Nichols murder transpired, although many believe JtR probably met Nichols elsewhere we don't really know that for sure (and it's generally part of the Cross/Lechmere = JtR idea that they met in Buck's Row itself - perhaps she was circling through there while searching for clients for example). Who knows, but if they met there how do we know it wasn't more like Stride than, say, Chapman (where it seems he had to accompany her to the backyard). Similarly with Eddowes, if the Church Passage Couple are not Eddowes and JtR, or even if they are but the man isn't JtR or her killer, then Eddowes and JtR could again have met in passing in Mitre Square and another "Stride like" attack could have occurred. That seems less likely given the location of the murder in the Square, but we don't know for sure how it actually transpired.

So in short, one thing we have to wonder is just how different was B.S.'s attack on Stride different from other known JtR attacks?

But let's say our notion of how the other attacks unfoled is more or less correct, and B.S.'s attack on Stride is out of character (probably the more likely situation anyway).

Well, all that really let's us conclude is that the sequence of the attack was different, not that the attacker has to be a different person from JtR. Now, if JtR is not only gaining pleasure from the abdominal mutilations, but it is the whole encounter (explaining why the other 4 attacks seem to be similar in so many more ways than just having a cut throat and mutilation), then that would mean Stride has already deviated from what he needs, what drives him to commit these murders. It is just not going to be satisfying, and may already be unsatisfying by the time he's cut her throat. For example, if he gets some sort of pleasure out of the look of surprise and fear on their face during the strangulation phase, then that appears to have been denied him with Stride. And it may be during that phase that his "excitement" levels rise to the point he wants to engage in the abdominal mutilations (yes, I'm in full blown speculation mode here - there's no way for us to know what he thought, etc).

So again, if B.S. is JtR, then it may be the "internal" interruption was because the encounter, from the beginning, was just not to his satisfaction and he didn't get worked up enough to move on to the mutilation phase.

Remember, we can consider the possibility that JtR had a very specific sequence he was following, but that doesn't mean each instance will go "exactly to plan" - reality and fantasy rarely coincide. Stride may just be an example of that, it didn't "go right" for him, in which case that might be why he stopped and didn't bother with mutilations.

Of course, B.S. might also have been her killer and not be JtR too, we can't rule that out, but just because Stride wasn't mutilated doesn't mean she wasn't killed by JtR. The lack of mutilations might, however, tell us something about JtR if she was killed by JtR.

As for the "threat of interruption" and not being found until Deimshutz shows up, well, the large amount of obvious activity would threaten possible interruption, and so he might have left for that external reason (rather than the internal one above). But "threat" of interruption doesn't mean it had to happen - just had to seem like it was more probable to happen. In fact, he might have actually had more time with Stride than he did with Eddowes (presuming it's JtR here), but that's hindsight. At the time, it would seem like the opposite would be the case, but even JtR wasn't a fortune teller and couldn't know for sure what the future would hold.

- Jeff

hI Jeff,


Without going in to much detail as ive already covered this in my previous post . I dont think for one second that B.S was JtR for one very simple fact , which as yet nobody as been able to give a valid, reasonable explanation '' Why was b.s man trying to drag stride into the street ?!!

Where was he trying to take her ?

The simple answer and most logical explanation is this, she obviously refused his advances and told him to piss off ,he gott shitty with Schwartz, called him lipski ,then after a min or two went and killed stride leaving almost immediately afterwards .

If jack the ripper had killed Stride ,the 15 mins would have been more than enough for any mutilations.

The spooked part ive already covered, it would have to have been almost a dead certainty that someone was coming into that yard for him to move on [hence the body would be discovered well before 1.00am

p.s sorry about the bold, it got stuck on my comp for some reason .

[Herlock Sholmes]

Could it have been the case that BS man wanted to take her somewhere more private so that he could kill and mutilate her but Stride was trying to lead him into the yard? In effect saying “Why go anywhere else? We’ll be just fine here.” So he pulls her toward the street while she was pulling toward the yard. This might have begun quite non-aggressively; an attempt at persuasion on both sides, it might even have began in quite good humour (at least on the surface) then perhaps Stride dug her heels in when she couldn’t understand what was wrong with their current location. Tempers might have flared and BS man might just have panicked and decided to silence her by cutting her throat. As Schwartz said that she screamed but not very loudly this might indicate that she wasn’t in fear of her life.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

All based on a testimony of a man who has never been proven to exist.

No record exists of Israel Schwartz. The man who walked into give his statement to Abberline giving this name cannot be found in any record. Yet somehow a journalist in The Star found him (and his interpreter was home as well which was a tad fortunate). Swanson didn't have the right address. Who really was he and why should we believe him if we can't even find him? How do we know this is not a false statement?

The man who walked in to give a statement to Abberline, obviously existed. How much of an issue is it that a man of his name and address cannot be found?

What are the chances that 'Israel Schwartz' gave a false name and address? Would knowledge of that undermine his credibility?

I will say it again. Take Israel Schwartz out of the equation with all the things he supposedly saw and the timings. Then see how the scene plays out - it makes much more sense.

The inquest determined where Liz Stride was at 12:45. It was not where Schwartz claimed she was.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Fair point. I would imagine the Police wouldn't have been too concerned by such a thing anyways. Something happened to make him change his behaviour that night in regards mutilation and the only thing that stands out is being witnessed initiating an assault on the victim.

Why do you suppose that thing changed his mind about mutilation, but not murder? Especially had that witnessed left the scene.

[FISHY1118]

Could it have been the case that BS man wanted to take her somewhere more private so that he could kill and mutilate her but Stride was trying to lead him into the yard? In effect saying “Why go anywhere else? We’ll be just fine here.” So he pulls her toward the street while she was pulling toward the yard. This might have begun quite non-aggressively; an attempt at persuasion on both sides, it might even have began in quite good humour (at least on the surface) then perhaps Stride dug her heels in when she couldn’t understand what was wrong with their current location. Tempers might have flared and BS man might just have panicked and decided to silence her by cutting her throat. As Schwartz said that she screamed but not very loudly this might indicate that she wasn’t in fear of her life.

Not to say your scenario couldnt have played out that way , However The attempted ''pulling into the street'' might just have been instantanious, who knows , but for what ever reason B.S man was trying to forcibly take her somewhere she didnt want to go , which to goes against what he did with the other victims .

[FISHY1118]

The man who walked in to give a statement to Abberline, obviously existed. How much of an issue is it that a man of his name and address cannot be found?

What are the chances that 'Israel Schwartz' gave a false name and address? Would knowledge of that undermine his credibility?



The inquest determined where Liz Stride was at 12:45. It was not where Schwartz claimed she was.

Where does the inquest determined this ? Please point it out .

[NotBlamedForNothing]

hI Jeff,


Without going in to much detail as ive already covered this in my previous post . I dont think for one second that B.S was JtR for one very simple fact , which as yet nobody as been able to give a valid, reasonable explanation '' Why was b.s man trying to drag stride into the street ?!!

Where was he trying to take her ?

Assuming both recall and interpretation were accurate in terms of the essentials, that behavior makes little apparent sense. A broad-shouldered man trying, but apparently failing, to pull a slight built woman where he wanted to, almost has the oxymoronic quality of "she screamed three times but not very loudly". One might protest by supposing that the man 'failed' because Stride may have lost her balance and fell. But so what if she did? What's to stop him continuing to try? Perhaps he just wanted her out of the yard. Perhaps his name was Morris Eagle?

The simple answer and most logical explanation is this, she obviously refused his advances and told him to piss off ,he gott shitty with Schwartz, called him lipski ,then after a min or two went and killed stride leaving almost immediately afterwards .

He killed her just for that? If he had been making advances, I would have thought the more logical place to pull her would be further into the yard, not the opposite. Where do you suppose he had wanted her to go with him?

If jack the ripper had killed Stride ,the 15 mins would have been more than enough for any mutilations.

Yes, and 15 seconds would have been more than enough to commence any mutilations. Yet she is not even turned onto her back.

The spooked part ive already covered, it would have to have been almost a dead certainty that someone was coming into that yard for him to move on [hence the body would be discovered well before 1.00am

Considering Arbeter Fraint's take, Gilyarovsky saw blood before he logically could have. Unless, that is, he came into the yard shortly before the steward's arrival, and AF chose not to mention that.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Where does the inquest determined this ? Please point it out .

In the coroners summing up:

At 12:30 p.m. the constable on the beat (William Smith) saw the deceased in Berner-street standing on the pavement a few yards from Commercial-street, and he observed she was wearing a flower in her dress. A quarter of an hour afterwards James Brown, of Fairclough-street, passed the deceased close to the Board school. A man was at her side leaning against the wall, and the deceased was heard to say, "Not to-night, but some other night."

[caz]

You are looking at this in hindsight. B.S man did not know he had 13 minutes to mutilate Stride. The reason he would be much more spooked by Berner Street is because it was a blind corner. At least in Hanbury Street he had a fence to shield him. The initial attack on Stride is witnessed by two people if Schwartz is to be believed. For me B.S man is also JTR and the reason he does not mutilate is likely as Jeff states an internal or external reason which we cannot prove but which seems likely. The cut throat is JTR's giveaway in my opinion. These types of murders were very rare and even more so if it was an attack on the street. Often throat cuttings were domestics done in a domestic setting.

Good post, Sunny D.

To me it looks like a punishment killing if this was BS man and he was JtR. Serial killers seem incapable of blaming themselves, so when Stride resisted his rough treatment and cried out, and he realised they had witnesses, he would have blamed her for drawing attention to his own behaviour.

His original intentions may have been to steer her away from the club towards a quieter location, while she may well have preferred the relative safety of the yard, given the recent brutal murders of three local women. If she dug her heels in and said something like: "It's here or nowhere, mister", he may have lost his temper and cut her throat, with no further designs on her. The moment was lost, and a witness to their altercation could be fetching a copper for all he knew.

JtR was not a robot and would have valued his continued freedom to kill again, in better circumstances next time. He would not have set about mutilating a victim unless he thought he could do so unobserved and uninterrupted, especially if he had close calls in Buck's Row and Hanbury Street. But he was an efficient killing machine and had the right weapon on him. So I have never bought the argument that he would not have killed anyone unless he could go on to mutilate the body.

That would leave us with a second man with a sharp knife, but one with little experience of using it to kill anyone, who for some unknown reason decided to use it on the woman standing by the club's entrance that night, cutting her throat in a strikingly similar manner to the active serial killer currently abroad in Whitechapel, before running off into the night unseen.

Love,

Caz
X

[NotBlamedForNothing]

His original intentions may have been to steer her away from the club towards a quieter location, while she may well have preferred the relative safety of the yard, given the recent brutal murders of three local women. If she dug her heels in and said something like: "It's here or nowhere, mister", he may have lost his temper and cut her throat, with no further designs on her. The moment was lost, and a witness to their altercation could be fetching a copper for all he knew.

Had Stride been using the yard as a location for sex, previous to meeting the BS man? If she had, why had no one noticed? Or was this coincidently the very first time she had wanted to use that location?

By the way, your digging heels in scenario does sound like the escalating quarrel of the Star account. Just sayin'.