Why No Stride Mutilations ?

[Trevor Marriott]

The Police spoke to Kelly after the Eddowes murder, Edward Stanley after the Stride murder and Barnett after the Kelly murder. Why should we assume that they were so incompetent that they didn’t check Kidney fully? We can’t prove that they did but equally we can’t prove that they didn’t but we surely have to favour the former as being the likelier? How could they have known for example that Kidney wasn’t the ripper? They were under extreme pressure to catch this man of course.

Of course he could have given a false alibi which might have fooled the Police but as we have no records should we just assume that they didn’t stand him in front of Schwartz? Or Smith?

But you cannot assume anything with these ripper crimes, what would seem logical to us in the world we live in today may not have seemed logical to the police back then

The question is how reliable did the police think that Schwartz was he never got called to the inquest having witnessed a significant part of what might have been the lead up to Strides murder, or was it that the police could not find him. or that he gave false details or a false statement?

If the police belived that the same killer who murdered Eddowes first murdered Stride that would deflect away from the suspicion that Stride was the victim of a domestic murder, and if so then the perpetrator of that crime could not have been the ripper, the police investigation into Strides murder was tainted by the murder of Eddowes a short time later.

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[Trevor Marriott]

Significant differences = no mutilations.

You have missed of

The time of the murder
The location
The only murder commited south of the Whitechapel Road
The weapon used
The killer placing himself in the public domain when people were still moving about and risking being identified

https://www.trevormarriott.co.uk

[Herlock Sholmes]

You have missed of

The time of the murder - irrelevant.
The location - irrelevant if you’re talking about Berner Street.
The only murder commited south of the Whitechapel Road - irrelevant.
The weapon used - how can we know this?
The killer placing himself in the public domain when people were still moving about and risking being identified - worth considering imo.

https://www.trevormarriott.co.uk

Even though I’m undecided on whether it was a ripper murder your exaggerating the importance of your ‘points against.’

[Mark J D]

The quoted analysis surely has to be seen as reactionary, given the way it pretends that no-one ever thought of placing Lechmere in the frame...

The time of the murder - irrelevant.
The location - irrelevant if you’re talking about Berner Street.
The only murder commited south of the Whitechapel Road - irrelevant.
The weapon used - how can we know this?
The killer placing himself in the public domain when people were still moving about and risking being identified - worth considering imo

In fact...

The time of the murder - breaks the previous pattern because Lechmere wasn't travelling to work on Sunday morning.
The location - unrelated to his work, and a couple of hundred yards from his mother's house.
The only murder commited south of the Whitechapel Road - it's where his mother lived, thus strongly connected.
The weapon used - not being on his way to work, Lechmere wouldn't have been wearing his work clothes or been carrying his usual knife.
The killer placing himself in the public domain when people were still moving about and risking being identified - yes: the single anomalous, hit-and-run murder took place in the very area where he had previously lived and was certainly known. Quelle surprise...

M.

[Herlock Sholmes]

The quoted analysis surely has to be seen as reactionary, given the way it pretends that no-one ever thought of placing Lechmere in the frame...



In fact...

The time of the murder - breaks the previous pattern because Lechmere wasn't travelling to work on Sunday morning.
The location - unrelated to his work, and a couple of hundred yards from his mother's house.
The only murder commited south of the Whitechapel Road - it's where his mother lived, thus strongly connected.
The weapon used - not being on his way to work, Lechmere wouldn't have been wearing his work clothes or been carrying his usual knife.
The killer placing himself in the public domain when people were still moving about and risking being identified - yes: the single anomalous, hit-and-run murder took place in the very area where he had previously lived and was certainly known. Quelle surprise...

M.

But we’re talking about Ripper murders and not Lechmere murders. Do you really think that Lechmere couldn’t have carried his work knife unless he was wearing his work clothes?

[JeffHamm]

I'm on the fence as to Stride being a Ripper victim, which means I equally entertain the idea she was and wasn't. If she wasn't, I think, like Trevor, Kidney is more than worth a good look at. The most common killer is a person's partner, and that alone puts him in the focus to be eliminated if he can be. Given what we have, he can't be. Schwartz viewed B.S. from behind for the most part, and his description is pretty generic, but regardless, we have no description of Kidney to compare it to. Sure, one would expect the police to have considered him, but if, given Eddowes murder, they developed tunnel vision they could overlook what a more sober investigation might not. Trevor's concern that they could have dismissed a more mundane explanation for her murder is very valid.

On the other hand, if Stride is a Ripper victim, I tend to think that Kidney becomes an unlikely Ripper suspect (and therefore not Stride's killer). I can't really say why though, other than, from what we know about his actions and odd behaviour around asking for a "private detective", etc, seems to fit if he's genuinely upset over her death (not her killer), or trying to divert attention away from his involvement in her death (is her killer), but it seems odd if he's been killing multiple woman and therefore JtR (it draws too much attention to himself for one guilty of multiple murders). So to me, his actions seem to fit with either innocence or her murder only, but not with a multiple murderer in which one victim is close to him. I would have expected a very long interlude before another murder if he was JtR, or no further murders (if problems/anger that arose from his relationship with Stride was what was triggering him in the first place).

With our lack of knowledge about his appearance, we can't compare it with Schwartz's description to decide for ourselves if he deserved a closer look. Under the circumstances, the police may have erroneously lumped Stride in with Eddowes, and already under pressure to catch JtR, they diverted their resources to the series and made a mistake; that is a very real possibility and one that continues to occur today (the opposite also happens, where the police fail to recognize there is a series in the first place, slowing the investigation because information doesn't get collated - hindsight is 20/20 after all).

Anyway, I'm not pushing Kidney as Stride's killer, since I haven't decided if she is or is not part of the series, but I think he's a good candidate if she's not - good candidate doesn't mean I'm convinced he did kill her, only that I think he needs to be looked at and eliminated if he can be. Sadly, I don't think the information remains that allows us to eliminate him. We can speculate that the police at the time had that information, but as we know, mistakes do happen (as Trevor has pointed out), and if this is an example of "premature elimination", then perhaps it is our job to relook at that decision.

- Jeff

[Aethelwulf]

Even if we could persuade ourselves that Kidney was BSMan, it does not necessarily follow that he killed Stride. My opinion is that Stride knew BSMan, and she pulled away from his attempt to pull her out of the yard, overbalanced and fell down. I think she then got up, without feeling threatened, and thoroughly admonished him, after which he departed. What happened after that is anyone's guess.

Cheer, George

If Kidney is assumed to be the killer, wrongly IMO, how are the seemingly connected points below addressed:

• We know for a fact JtR was out that night (Eddowes) a mere 45 mins to an hour after BS man/Stride incident
• BS man shouted a Jewish slur, likely at Schwartz, who was said to have a noticeable Jewish appearance
• Part of Eddowes' apron was found below the GSG, also seemingly venting frustration at the Jewish community

Are we to believe that Kidney shouted Lipski, killed stride then wrote the GSG and the ripper then happened to drop part of Eddowes apron beside the GSG? Or that BS man/Kidney killed Stride, and then there was another incident involving JtR and a Jewish slur minutes later, who then went on to write the GSG. The idea that JtR was watching and hijacked the Lipski comment and wrote the GSG is clearly stretching things too far/a load of rubbish.

IMO people are over thinking this. Surely the most logical explanation is BS insulted Schwartz, killed stride, wrote GSG, placed apron. Someone wrote about the BS man incident in a previous post somewhere 'JtR wouldn't have done that' - clearly more rubbish. How can any of us know what he would or wouldn't have done. Personally, I wouldn't be surprised if the ripper was gone before D got there with his cart. The interruption as such was likely the Schwartz incident itself - ripper has been seen but still wants to dispatch Stride, kills her (exact scenario of which we can only guess at), leaves on hunt for next victim.

[Trevor Marriott]

Even though I’m undecided on whether it was a ripper murder your exaggerating the importance of your ‘points against.’

They are valid points that should not be discounted lightly, and collectively they make up a good case to show Stride was not a victim of JTR based on his MO with regars to all the other victims

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[Mark J D]

... Do you really think that Lechmere couldn’t have carried his work knife unless he was wearing his work clothes?

Yeah, like he's really going to want to visit his mother with a nine-inch blade tucked into the coat she takes off him and hangs up in the hallway. Just like Peter Sutcliffe carrying a hammer and screwdriver to a Christmas party at his rellies'.

The knife-work of the 'double event' has always been considered anomalous. I offer a reason why, and people run a mile. The loss isn't mine.

M.

[John Wheat]

The quoted analysis surely has to be seen as reactionary, given the way it pretends that no-one ever thought of placing Lechmere in the frame...



In fact...

The time of the murder - breaks the previous pattern because Lechmere wasn't travelling to work on Sunday morning.
The location - unrelated to his work, and a couple of hundred yards from his mother's house.
The only murder commited south of the Whitechapel Road - it's where his mother lived, thus strongly connected.
The weapon used - not being on his way to work, Lechmere wouldn't have been wearing his work clothes or been carrying his usual knife.
The killer placing himself in the public domain when people were still moving about and risking being identified - yes: the single anomalous, hit-and-run murder took place in the very area where he had previously lived and was certainly known. Quelle surprise...

M.

But there is no evidence whatsoever that Lechmere murdered anyone.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Yeah, like he's really going to want to visit his mother with a nine-inch blade tucked into the coat she takes off him and hangs up in the hallway. Just like Peter Sutcliffe carrying a hammer and screwdriver to a Christmas party at his rellies'.

The knife-work of the 'double event' has always been considered anomalous. I offer a reason why, and people run a mile. The loss isn't mine.

M.

I wonder how often he visited his mother in the early hours of the morning? And when he did visit her I wonder how often she searched his clothing? And how do you know it was a 9” blade?

[Trevor Marriott]

I wonder how often he visited his mother in the early hours of the morning? And when he did visit her I wonder how often she searched his clothing? And how do you know it was a 9” blade?

In the case of Chapman Dr Phillips stated "He should say that the instrument used at the throat and abdomen was the same. It must have been a very sharp knife with a thin narrow blade, and must have been at least 6 in. to 8 in. in length, probably longer.

www.trevormarriott.co.uk

[Mark J D]

I wonder how often he visited his mother in the early hours of the morning? And when he did visit her I wonder how often she searched his clothing? And how do you know it was a 9” blade?

Or you could have replied intelligently.

Couldn't you?

M.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Or you could have replied intelligently.

Couldn't you?

M.

I don’t see what was wrong with my questions. It’s often been stated that the location of family dwellings would have given Lechmere a reason for being somewhere if questioned but “I’ve been visiting x” would hardly have washed at 2am would it?

Secondly, what would have been in the slightest bit risky about carrying a knife in a coat pocket when visiting family? Unless she searched the pockets of his coat how could she have got to have known about it? It’s not an issue.

And thirdly, where do you get a 9” knife from?

After Trevor’s post, and after also checking Brown, it appears at least 6” possibly longer, so it could have been 9” but I don’t know why you quoted 9” exactly?

[Herlock Sholmes]

In the case of Chapman Dr Phillips stated "He should say that the instrument used at the throat and abdomen was the same. It must have been a very sharp knife with a thin narrow blade, and must have been at least 6 in. to 8 in. in length, probably longer.

www.trevormarriott.co.uk

Thanks Trevor.

Brown said at least 6” too.

So unknown exactly but 6” or more. 9” not impossible.