Why No Stride Mutilations ?

[Al Bundy's Eyes]

Throat slashing seems like such an unusual choice in a dispute fueled by drunken rage and frustration: its not punishment, its a quick death.
It was not a robbery, where one robs a person and then eliminates them from screaming.

Its perpetrated by someone who has meditated upon killing; its what an assassin would do.

Jealous boyfriends are always number one suspects....or else there would not be operas.
Its possible that the police did not require Stride's boyfriend to furnish a convincing alibi, but very unlikely.

There was a throat cutting domestic murder commited that same night though. Certainly not ripper related but worth keeping in mind.

[c.d.]

there should be a separate area of case book called 'totally b*ll*cks stupid conspiracy theories' for this sort of nonsense. leave all the nutters to it.

Not enough bandwidth for that.

c.d.

[c.d.]

Surely we can’t assume that the police didn’t bother checking to see if Kidney had an alibi though?

My guess would be that the police asked him for an alibi. He had one which they checked and he was cleared. If he had no alibi, I would imagine that they would have asked Schwartz to take a look at him. That they never imagined Kidney to be a suspect is possible but extremely unlikely unless the police were complete idiots.

c.d.

[Trevor Marriott]

Ditto c.d’s post. Surely we can’t assume that the police didn’t bother checking to see if Kidney had an alibi though?

You should know by now that It is wrong to assume anything in Ripperology

There is no record of him giving an alibi or him ever being formally interviewed and being eliminated. and even if he was interviewed he could have easily said he was in his room asleep !!!!!!!!!!!!

As I said previous if her murder had been a one off then no doubt Kidney would have been the first person they arrested given their torrid relationship and him having a propensity of violence towards her, but the police were faced with two murders the same night which they at the time and in my opinion wrongly linked both to the previous murders and JTR.

www.trevormarriott.co.uk

[Trevor Marriott]

Surely we can’t assume that the police didn’t bother checking to see if Kidney had an alibi though?

My guess would be that the police asked him for an alibi. He had one which they checked and he was cleared. If he had no alibi, I would imagine that they would have asked Schwartz to take a look at him. That they never imagined Kidney to be a suspect is possible but extremely unlikely unless the police were complete idiots.

c.d.

Well history and the documented actions of the police throughout these murders has shown that they were not the brightest sparks in the fire but that is not entireley their fault they did the best they could, but the reality is that they never had to deal with a serial killer of this magnitude before and were simply ill equipped and ill advised.

You also have to take into consideration the differences in Strides murder to the rest of the murders sugest to me a different killer for Stride

www.trevormarriott.co.uk

[c.d.]

There is no record of him giving an alibi or him ever being formally interviewed and being eliminated. and even if he was interviewed he could have easily said he was in his room asleep !!!!!!!!!!!!


Correct. But then you bring in Schwartz to look at him. I mean seriously. They wouldn't have thought of that? I am amazed at how eager you seem to be to disparage Scotland Yard. Did these detectives have any training at all?

c.d.

[FISHY1118]

You should know by now that It is wrong to assume anything in Ripperology

There is no record of him giving an alibi or him ever being formally interviewed and being eliminated. and even if he was interviewed he could have easily said he was in his room asleep !!!!!!!!!!!!

As I said previous if her murder had been a one off then no doubt Kidney would have been the first person they arrested given their torrid relationship and him having a propensity of violence towards her, but the police were faced with two murders the same night which they at the time and in my opinion wrongly linked both to the previous murders and JTR.

www.trevormarriott.co.uk

For the police to Arrest Kidney for Strides murder , they would have to have had a damm good reason to do so As he was never arrested for her crime what does that tell us ? . Lets leave kidney out of this mess [for obvious reasons] for goodness sake. Its just a another redherring that people like to make up thats surrounded by speculation , conjecture and circumstances, just to make a point. Which ultimately leads nowhere to finding the killer which is never suprizing .

This is surely to be put in the Eagle and Lave and now Kidney ''Silly bin'' as Strides killer . Move on ,nothing to see here .

[Trevor Marriott]

For the police to Arrest Kidney for Strides murder , they would have to have had a damm good reason to do so As he was never arrested for her crime what does that tell us ? . Lets leave kidney out of this mess [for obvious reasons] for goodness sake. Its just a another redherring that people like to make up thats surrounded by speculation , conjecture and circumstances, just to make a point. Which ultimately leads nowhere to finding the killer which is never suprizing .

This is surely to be put in the Eagle and Lave and now Kidney ''Silly bin'' as Strides killer . Move on ,nothing to see here .

The police had the power to arrest on suspicion.

We do not know if Kidney was interviewed, there is no evidence in his inquest testimony as to where he was as the time of the murder and nothing in any police record. You cannot assume that he was interviewed conversely as you say he might have been.

Over the years there are many recorded cases where the police have failed in their duties in major cases which has led to wrongful arrest, and miscarriages of justice.

Because of the murder of Eddowes a short time after the murder of Stride I am of the opinion that the police wrongly believed that both murders were committed by the killer known as JTR, so they focused all their attentions in that direction. They should have identified the significant MO between Strides murder and the others and investigated her murder as a potential domestic murder.

Kidney`s inquest testimony was in conflict with other witnesses

I think the only use of the silly bin is for you and others who take this blinkered approach to this murder and are not prepared to think outside the box. Stride was not killed by JTR in my opinion based on the MO of the killer in this murder, and I am sure the reply will be that killers do change their MO which is very true but not as significant as in the case of Stride, everything abour her murder is so differenet from the rest and if you take the blinkers off you will see this.

www.trevormarriott.co.uk

[FISHY1118]

The police had the power to arrest on suspicion.

We do not know if Kidney was interviewed, there is no evidence in his inquest testimony as to where he was as the time of the murder and nothing in any police record. You cannot assume that he was interviewed conversely as you say he might have been.

Over the years there are many recorded cases where the police have failed in their duties in major cases which has led to wrongful arrest, and miscarriages of justice.

Because of the murder of Eddowes a short time after the murder of Stride I am of the opinion that the police wrongly believed that both murders were committed by the killer known as JTR, so they focused all their attentions in that direction. They should have identified the significant MO between Strides murder and the others and investigated her murder as a potential domestic murder.

Kidney`s inquest testimony was in conflict with other witnesses

I think the only use of the silly bin is for you and others who take this blinkered approach to this murder and are not prepared to think outside the box. Stride was not killed by JTR in my opinion based on the MO of the killer in this murder, and I am sure the reply will be that killers do change their MO which is very true but not as significant as in the case of Stride, everything abour her murder is so differenet from the rest and if you take the blinkers off you will see this.

www.trevormarriott.co.uk

For what its worth i dont think stride was a Ripper victim either , for the reasons ive decribed already . But to even suggest that Kidney was her killer based on nothing at all really is ridiculous, and you know its nothing . So lets not go into all the details as to why. So its still the ''Silly Bin'' for Kidney .




''The police had the power to arrest on suspicion''.

Again, when was Kidney ever arrested for the suspicion of murdering Elizabeth Stride . ?

Lechmere , Hutchinson, Paul , Schwartz, should they have all been arrested too ?

Show me a witness or somebody who actually testified at the inquest that the police on suspicion arrested for any of the ripper murders.? Then you might just have something worth talking about, otherwise move on .

[Herlock Sholmes]

You should know by now that It is wrong to assume anything in Ripperology

There is no record of him giving an alibi or him ever being formally interviewed and being eliminated. and even if he was interviewed he could have easily said he was in his room asleep !!!!!!!!!!!!

As I said previous if her murder had been a one off then no doubt Kidney would have been the first person they arrested given their torrid relationship and him having a propensity of violence towards her, but the police were faced with two murders the same night which they at the time and in my opinion wrongly linked both to the previous murders and JTR.

www.trevormarriott.co.uk

The Police spoke to Kelly after the Eddowes murder, Edward Stanley after the Stride murder and Barnett after the Kelly murder. Why should we assume that they were so incompetent that they didn’t check Kidney fully? We can’t prove that they did but equally we can’t prove that they didn’t but we surely have to favour the former as being the likelier? How could they have known for example that Kidney wasn’t the ripper? They were under extreme pressure to catch this man of course.

Of course he could have given a false alibi which might have fooled the Police but as we have no records should we just assume that they didn’t stand him in front of Schwartz? Or Smith?

[GBinOz]

I think researchers have become blinkered in their approach to this murder, as were the police in 1888 by linking this murder to the rest when there are signifiant differnces which were clearly evident back then, and still are today and ignoring the most likely suspect for Strides murder that being Michael Kidney her boyfriend/partner.

I can find no record of Kidney accounting for his movements at the time of her murder.

Stride was seen arguing with a man shortly before her murder that man has never been identified so that arugment has all the hallmarks of a domestic argument and I dont believe for one minute that JTR would get involved in a street incident with a potential victim especially at that time of the night outside a club when the public were still about. That man could have been Kidney or simply a potential punter who she accosted who wanted nothing to do with her

https://www.trevormarriott.co.uk

Hi Trevor,

I agree with your supposition that the confrontation between BSMan and Stride had all the hallmarks of a domestic, with Kidney in the role of BSman. The attempt to pull her into the street and the fact that her protests were not loud indicate to me that Stride was dealing with someone she knew. I also agree that JtR would not have planned a murder in that location and with that set of circumstances, which included two witnesses. However, I don't dismiss JtR being involved as an opportunist following on from witnessing the start of a crime which could be attributed to someone else.

My reservation with Kidney as being BSMan is :
1. Does his description match Schwartz's description of BSMan?
2. Would not the police have had Schwartz take a look at Kidney?

Even if we could persuade ourselves that Kidney was BSMan, it does not necessarily follow that he killed Stride. My opinion is that Stride knew BSMan, and she pulled away from his attempt to pull her out of the yard, overbalanced and fell down. I think she then got up, without feeling threatened, and thoroughly admonished him, after which he departed. What happened after that is anyone's guess.

Cheer, George

[Herlock Sholmes]

Stride was not killed by JTR in my opinion based on the MO of the killer in this murder, and I am sure the reply will be that killers do change their MO which is very true but not as significant as in the case of Stride, everything abour her murder is so differenet from the rest and if you take the blinkers off you will see this.

www.trevormarriott.co.uk

Significant differences = no mutilations.

You keep posting as if the killer was consulting some kind of serial killers handbook as he was doing what he did Trevor and so any minor deviation from ‘the plan’ meant that it wasn’t him.

Ive been undecided on Stride for 30 years, and still am, so I really don’t see how I can be accused of being ‘blinkered?’ (Yes, I realise that your comment was in direct response to Fishy [who doesn’t think that Stride was a ripper victim btw] but, from experience, I’ll assume that it included me because it usually does.)

A women who engaged in prostitution is murdered by having her throat cut outdoors during a period of murders of the same class of women within a very limited area and over a short period of time and on a night that we know for a fact that the ripper was active 15 minutes walk away. And we have a perfectly plausible, if unproven, possible reason for the lack of mutilations. This would have alarm bells ringing for any remotely functional Police force.

The location gives me doubt though unless her murder was killed as a result of the scenario that I mentioned in an earlier post. And I do have an issue with BS man being her killer after being seen by two people at close hand ‘assaulting’ Stride in the street. It’s not impossible that someone other than BS man killed her of course but it would have left a short 10 minutes or so window of opportunity.

So I don’t see how someone who is undecided on whether Stride was a victim or not can be described as ‘blinkered?’

[Herlock Sholmes]

Hi Trevor,

I agree with your supposition that the confrontation between BSMan and Stride had all the hallmarks of a domestic, with Kidney in the role of BSman. The attempt to pull her into the street and the fact that her protests were not loud indicate to me that Stride was dealing with someone she knew. I also agree that JtR would not have planned a murder in that location and with that set of circumstances, which included two witnesses. However, I don't dismiss JtR being involved as an opportunist following on from witnessing the start of a crime which could be attributed to someone else.

My reservation with Kidney as being BSMan is :
1. Does his description match Schwartz's description of BSMan?
2. Would not the police have had Schwartz take a look at Kidney?

Even if we could persuade ourselves that Kidney was BSMan, it does not necessarily follow that he killed Stride. My opinion is that Stride knew BSMan, and she pulled away from his attempt to pull her out of the yard, overbalanced and fell down. I think she then got up, without feeling threatened, and thoroughly admonished him, after which he departed. What happened after that is anyone's guess.

Cheer, George

Good points George. Although the window of opportunity was fairly tight post BS man it’s certainly possibly that someone else killed Stride. As you say, a description of Kidney would have been helpful.

[FISHY1118]

Hi Trevor,

I agree with your supposition that the confrontation between BSMan and Stride had all the hallmarks of a domestic, with Kidney in the role of BSman. The attempt to pull her into the street and the fact that her protests were not loud indicate to me that Stride was dealing with someone she knew. I also agree that JtR would not have planned a murder in that location and with that set of circumstances, which included two witnesses. However, I don't dismiss JtR being involved as an opportunist following on from witnessing the start of a crime which could be attributed to someone else.

My reservation with Kidney as being BSMan is :
1. Does his description match Schwartz's description of BSMan?
2. Would not the police have had Schwartz take a look at Kidney?

Even if we could persuade ourselves that Kidney was BSMan, it does not necessarily follow that he killed Stride. My opinion is that Stride knew BSMan, and she pulled away from his attempt to pull her out of the yard, overbalanced and fell down. I think she then got up, without feeling threatened, and thoroughly admonished him, after which he departed. What happened after that is anyone's guess.

Cheer, George

Hi George , I think one has to eliminate Kidney from being B.S. and Strides killer .


. [Coroner] You had a quarrel with her on Thursday? - I did not see her on Thursday.



[Coroner] When did you last see her? - ''On the Tuesday, and I then left her on friendly terms in Commercial- street''. That was between nine and ten o'clock at night, as I was coming from work.


[Coroner] Did you expect her home? - I expected her home half an hour afterwards. I subsequently ascertained that she had been in and had gone out again, ''and I did not see her again alive.''


It just seems a bit strange that under oath he would claim this, if all that took place was just a slight domestic with the Mrs .



If he did lie , then surely Schwartz description to the police and his eyewitness account of the event would have caught his lie out, dont you think ?

Chances of Kidney being ''B.S man '' Id say in the ''Extremely very unlikly'' basket .

[FISHY1118]

Significant differences = no mutilations.

You keep posting as if the killer was consulting some kind of serial killers handbook as he was doing what he did Trevor and so any minor deviation from ‘the plan’ meant that it wasn’t him.

Ive been undecided on Stride for 30 years, and still am, so I really don’t see how I can be accused of being ‘blinkered?’ (Yes, I realise that your comment was in direct response to Fishy [who doesn’t think that Stride was a ripper victim btw] but, from experience, I’ll assume that it included me because it usually does.)

A women who engaged in prostitution is murdered by having her throat cut outdoors during a period of murders of the same class of women within a very limited area and over a short period of time and on a night that we know for a fact that the ripper was active 15 minutes walk away. And we have a perfectly plausible, if unproven, possible reason for the lack of mutilations. This would have alarm bells ringing for any remotely functional Police force.

The location gives me doubt though unless her murder was killed as a result of the scenario that I mentioned in an earlier post. And I do have an issue with BS man being her killer after being seen by two people at close hand ‘assaulting’ Stride in the street. It’s not impossible that someone other than BS man killed her of course but it would have left a short 10 minutes or so window of opportunity.

So I don’t see how someone who is undecided on whether Stride was a victim or not can be described as ‘blinkered?’

Just to be fair ,i did mention that to Trevor in my post 99#.