Why No Stride Mutilations ?

[Herlock Sholmes]

Not to say your scenario couldnt have played out that way , However The attempted ''pulling into the street'' might just have been instantanious, who knows , but for what ever reason B.S man was trying to forcibly take her somewhere she didnt want to go , which to goes against what he did with the other victims .

Ive never been totally certain on whether Stride was a ripper victim or not but if she was then the killer might have simply been unhappy with the location hence a desire to go somewhere more out of the way. The location is the biggest source of any doubt that I have. Near an open gate with people potentially walking past a very few feet away and a door to a club with the sound of singing coming from upstairs.

[caz]

Had Stride been using the yard as a location for sex, previous to meeting the BS man? If she had, why had no one noticed? Or was this coincidently the very first time she had wanted to use that location?

Who said she wanted, or was planning, to use that location for sex? If she was there when BS man approached her with threatening behaviour, she may simply have felt safer staying put, where club members were coming and going, in case he turned really nasty, rather than going anywhere else, with or without him.

By the way, your digging heels in scenario does sound like the escalating quarrel of the Star account. Just sayin'.

So?

Love,

Caz
X

[caz]

Not to say your scenario couldnt have played out that way , However The attempted ''pulling into the street'' might just have been instantanious, who knows , but for what ever reason B.S man was trying to forcibly take her somewhere she didnt want to go , which to goes against what he did with the other victims .

But if he was JtR and his previous victims had put up little or no resistance, regardless of any lack of charm he showed them, that could explain the difference with Stride, surely?

Same killer + different victim = different scenario with different reactions from each player.

All women are not the same.

Love,

Caz
X

[caz]

Could it have been the case that BS man wanted to take her somewhere more private so that he could kill and mutilate her but Stride was trying to lead him into the yard? In effect saying “Why go anywhere else? We’ll be just fine here.” So he pulls her toward the street while she was pulling toward the yard. This might have begun quite non-aggressively; an attempt at persuasion on both sides, it might even have began in quite good humour (at least on the surface) then perhaps Stride dug her heels in when she couldn’t understand what was wrong with their current location. Tempers might have flared and BS man might just have panicked and decided to silence her by cutting her throat. As Schwartz said that she screamed but not very loudly this might indicate that she wasn’t in fear of her life.

This is very much how I could see it playing out, Herlock.

The victims were not inanimate objects, like chess pieces, to be moved around at will, to fit another person's idea of who they were and what each one was doing and thinking when she encountered her killer.

If some posters to these boards can think of them in this way, how much more likely is it that JtR did too, and was simply ill-prepared for when a woman didn't behave as the others had, or as he intended her to?

Love,

Caz
X

[caz]

Jeff, I do wonder if a couple of things were at play in regards the attack on Stride being out of character.

1) As attacks continue the perpetrator often begins to feel invincible. Chances begin to be taken that get even more wild and disorganised(particularly if somewhat disorganised at the beginning). The impulsiveness also begins to become more erratic. We see this will serial killers of this kind. His attack on Stride could have been driven by this.

2) Israel Schwartz mentions in his Press statement(I prefer Police statements but the two are very similar in Schwartzs regard) that B.S man appeared intoxicated. Did this intoxication lower his inhibitions still further? It is notable that this is the earliest attack that takes place. Was there time in the other instances for some of the intoxication to wear off?

3) We often assumed that the Ripper was approached by his victims but what if he actually approached them? He approaches Stride with the usual line but she does not respond as the others have and this upsets him leading to an impulsive assault through anger of being rejected. Speculative I know but worth thinking about.

Hi Sunny D,

I do think the ripper had it all his own way with Nichols and Chapman in the 'approach' phase, whoever initiated the contact. They were particularly vulnerable and desperate, and a man like the ripper was likely to see all women out alone at night as the same - "willing for a shilling", or at least thruppence. When he first saw Stride, he'd have viewed her in the exact same light and would not have expected or appreciated it if she proved him wrong by not immediately rolling over. She would be his third or fourth victim since early the previous month, so arguably more wary than the others, and less likely to respond well to threats or promises. It's even possible that a rough approach with Stride had worked fine for him previously, and her reaction caused him to adapt, changing his approach with Eddowes, if they were the couple seen being friendly near Mitre Square.

Love,

Caz
X

[FISHY1118]

In the coroners summing up:

At 12:30 p.m. the constable on the beat (William Smith) saw the deceased in Berner-street standing on the pavement a few yards from Commercial-street, and he observed she was wearing a flower in her dress. A quarter of an hour afterwards James Brown, of Fairclough-street, passed the deceased close to the Board school. A man was at her side leaning against the wall, and the deceased was heard to say, "Not to-night, but some other night."

James Brown: I live in Fairclough-street, and am a dock labourer. I have seen the body in the mortuary. I did not know deceased, but I saw her'' about'' a

quarter to one on Sunday morning last.


''About'' quarter to one is not 12.45am tho is it ?



''I saw a man and woman standing at the corner of the Board School. I was in the road just by the kerb, and they were near the wall.''

If they were standing on the corner at ''about'' quarter to 1.00 [about could be anytime leading up to that time] ,then swartz statement at 12.45 could easily have them placed where he said they were.


The inquest did not determined where Liz Stride was at 12:45, you did ,however its just speculation and unproven .

[caz]

The killer didnt know he only had 7mins at Mitre Square either but he still managed to mutilate Eddowes.

However on the other hand ,as ive said when you compare the Hanbury st murder and Mitre Square to some extent, they were both thwart with just as much danger as Berner st for jtr being caught or spooked , given the same external and internal reasons .

Hi FISHY,

But he'd have been more fired up if he had just left Berner Street unsatisfied, so that could have made the difference and made him less cautious than he might otherwise have been. The fact that he still got away with it might have been down to luck rather than good judgement, but the extra adrenaline rush would have been a factor in his daring.

Love,

Caz
X

[NotBlamedForNothing]

His original intentions may have been to steer her away from the club towards a quieter location, while she may well have preferred the relative safety of the yard, given the recent brutal murders of three local women. If she dug her heels in and said something like: "It's here or nowhere, mister", he may have lost his temper and cut her throat, with no further designs on her. The moment was lost, and a witness to their altercation could be fetching a copper for all he knew.

Had Stride been using the yard as a location for sex, previous to meeting the BS man? If she had, why had no one noticed? Or was this coincidently the very first time she had wanted to use that location?

By the way, your digging heels in scenario does sound like the escalating quarrel of the Star account. Just sayin'.

[caz]

You are looking at this in hindsight. B.S man did not know he had 13 minutes to mutilate Stride. The reason he would be much more spooked by Berner Street is because it was a blind corner. At least in Hanbury Street he had a fence to shield him. The initial attack on Stride is witnessed by two people if Schwartz is to be believed. For me B.S man is also JTR and the reason he does not mutilate is likely as Jeff states an internal or external reason which we cannot prove but which seems likely. The cut throat is JTR's giveaway in my opinion. These types of murders were very rare and even more so if it was an attack on the street. Often throat cuttings were domestics done in a domestic setting.

Good post, Sunny D.

To me it looks like a punishment killing if this was BS man and he was JtR. Serial killers seem incapable of blaming themselves, so when Stride resisted his rough treatment and cried out, and he realised they had witnesses, he would have blamed her for drawing attention to his own behaviour.

His original intentions may have been to steer her away from the club towards a quieter location, while she may well have preferred the relative safety of the yard, given the recent brutal murders of three local women. If she dug her heels in and said something like: "It's here or nowhere, mister", he may have lost his temper and cut her throat, with no further designs on her. The moment was lost, and a witness to their altercation could be fetching a copper for all he knew.

JtR was not a robot and would have valued his continued freedom to kill again, in better circumstances next time. He would not have set about mutilating a victim unless he thought he could do so unobserved and uninterrupted, especially if he had close calls in Buck's Row and Hanbury Street. But he was an efficient killing machine and had the right weapon on him. So I have never bought the argument that he would not have killed anyone unless he could go on to mutilate the body.

That would leave us with a second man with a sharp knife, but one with little experience of using it to kill anyone, who for some unknown reason decided to use it on the woman standing by the club's entrance that night, cutting her throat in a strikingly similar manner to the active serial killer currently abroad in Whitechapel, before running off into the night unseen.

Love,

Caz
X

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Where does the inquest determined this ? Please point it out .

In the coroners summing up:

At 12:30 p.m. the constable on the beat (William Smith) saw the deceased in Berner-street standing on the pavement a few yards from Commercial-street, and he observed she was wearing a flower in her dress. A quarter of an hour afterwards James Brown, of Fairclough-street, passed the deceased close to the Board school. A man was at her side leaning against the wall, and the deceased was heard to say, "Not to-night, but some other night."

[NotBlamedForNothing]

hI Jeff,


Without going in to much detail as ive already covered this in my previous post . I dont think for one second that B.S was JtR for one very simple fact , which as yet nobody as been able to give a valid, reasonable explanation '' Why was b.s man trying to drag stride into the street ?!!

Where was he trying to take her ?

Assuming both recall and interpretation were accurate in terms of the essentials, that behavior makes little apparent sense. A broad-shouldered man trying, but apparently failing, to pull a slight built woman where he wanted to, almost has the oxymoronic quality of "she screamed three times but not very loudly". One might protest by supposing that the man 'failed' because Stride may have lost her balance and fell. But so what if she did? What's to stop him continuing to try? Perhaps he just wanted her out of the yard. Perhaps his name was Morris Eagle?

The simple answer and most logical explanation is this, she obviously refused his advances and told him to piss off ,he gott shitty with Schwartz, called him lipski ,then after a min or two went and killed stride leaving almost immediately afterwards .

He killed her just for that? If he had been making advances, I would have thought the more logical place to pull her would be further into the yard, not the opposite. Where do you suppose he had wanted her to go with him?

If jack the ripper had killed Stride ,the 15 mins would have been more than enough for any mutilations.

Yes, and 15 seconds would have been more than enough to commence any mutilations. Yet she is not even turned onto her back.

The spooked part ive already covered, it would have to have been almost a dead certainty that someone was coming into that yard for him to move on [hence the body would be discovered well before 1.00am

Considering Arbeter Fraint's take, Gilyarovsky saw blood before he logically could have. Unless, that is, he came into the yard shortly before the steward's arrival, and AF chose not to mention that.

[FISHY1118]

The man who walked in to give a statement to Abberline, obviously existed. How much of an issue is it that a man of his name and address cannot be found?

What are the chances that 'Israel Schwartz' gave a false name and address? Would knowledge of that undermine his credibility?



The inquest determined where Liz Stride was at 12:45. It was not where Schwartz claimed she was.

Where does the inquest determined this ? Please point it out .

[FISHY1118]

Could it have been the case that BS man wanted to take her somewhere more private so that he could kill and mutilate her but Stride was trying to lead him into the yard? In effect saying “Why go anywhere else? We’ll be just fine here.” So he pulls her toward the street while she was pulling toward the yard. This might have begun quite non-aggressively; an attempt at persuasion on both sides, it might even have began in quite good humour (at least on the surface) then perhaps Stride dug her heels in when she couldn’t understand what was wrong with their current location. Tempers might have flared and BS man might just have panicked and decided to silence her by cutting her throat. As Schwartz said that she screamed but not very loudly this might indicate that she wasn’t in fear of her life.

Not to say your scenario couldnt have played out that way , However The attempted ''pulling into the street'' might just have been instantanious, who knows , but for what ever reason B.S man was trying to forcibly take her somewhere she didnt want to go , which to goes against what he did with the other victims .

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Fair point. I would imagine the Police wouldn't have been too concerned by such a thing anyways. Something happened to make him change his behaviour that night in regards mutilation and the only thing that stands out is being witnessed initiating an assault on the victim.

Why do you suppose that thing changed his mind about mutilation, but not murder? Especially had that witnessed left the scene.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

All based on a testimony of a man who has never been proven to exist.

No record exists of Israel Schwartz. The man who walked into give his statement to Abberline giving this name cannot be found in any record. Yet somehow a journalist in The Star found him (and his interpreter was home as well which was a tad fortunate). Swanson didn't have the right address. Who really was he and why should we believe him if we can't even find him? How do we know this is not a false statement?

The man who walked in to give a statement to Abberline, obviously existed. How much of an issue is it that a man of his name and address cannot be found?

What are the chances that 'Israel Schwartz' gave a false name and address? Would knowledge of that undermine his credibility?

I will say it again. Take Israel Schwartz out of the equation with all the things he supposedly saw and the timings. Then see how the scene plays out - it makes much more sense.

The inquest determined where Liz Stride was at 12:45. It was not where Schwartz claimed she was.